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Sonic Forces Thread

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Blue Blood, Jul 23, 2016.

  1. RikohZX

    RikohZX

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    Making a broad blanket statement there. I see no one considering Generations to be garbage, just rushed and with Classic Sonic not being very good or refined compared to Modern Sonic. I see plenty of people praise the Modern stages for having some of the best 3D level design in the series.
     
  2. Naean

    Naean

    Naean H.F. (Nez Man) Member
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    Agreed with you on all fronts, Yeow. I'm going to add to this by quoting a similar post that I made on the matter some time ago, because in my opinion the bold distinction between the classic Sonic games' and new Sonic games' hidden spring usage needs to be made verbose:

    Edit: Also agreeing with what Dissent said below. It's not just the springs themselves existing in a level, but also crucially how well (Or in this case, not so well!) that they are implemented.
     
  3. Dissent

    Dissent

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    Did you honestly think that I was complaining about the concept of hidden springs? It's the implementation here that's awful. The entire spring is instantly appearing inside of Sonic as he passes through it in order to facilitate some scripted movement. It's not nitpicking, it's comparing it to typical game design concepts. It looks like some shit out of a Unity High School project.
     
  4. Tiller

    Tiller

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    Hidden Spring are in a lot of places in the classics.

    The problem is, like Lost World, Sonic Forces uses them constantly to maneuver Sonic in a certain direction in parts or send him to places you couldn't get to without explanation. The easiest example to see is the end of Forces's new Green Hill where there are two placed next to the spikes. You can't jump on the ledge without them since the distances is too high but there is no indication that walking near the spikes will get you up there. It begs the question of why they are hidden in the first place. They can't be saving that much on resources having them hidden.
     
  5. Endgame

    Endgame

    Formerly The Growler Member
    Games looking and feeling like this makes me embarrassed to be a Sonic fan.

    I think even using the physics from The Incredible Machine would have made this game a lot better - and that was released in 1992!

    Thank goodness for Mania!
     
  6. Sir_mihael

    Sir_mihael

    DON'T TRUST THIS MAN Member
    I wouldn't say this stage looks bad in any way, but maybe a tad uninspired. I also do get some weird-ass Sonic 4 vibes from it for some reason. Is that just me? Like, Casino Street meets Sylvanian Castle?
     
  7. RikohZX

    RikohZX

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    Watching the IGN footage confirms to me that Modern Tails is pretty much the only support for Classic Sonic, which means I guess they'll have their own entire subplot that works towards giving Sonic and Avatar a fighting chance.
    Alternatively they could just be literal filler levels and an excuse for Tails to not be right alongside Modern Sonic due to our buddy taking the spotlight. //forums.sonicretro.org/public/style_emoticons/default/v.png
     
  8. Liraxus

    Liraxus

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    Nothing, really.
    I'm probably the only one that actually found something appealing to Casino Forest, but I think that's just because I like when a Zone takes two strange ideas and combines them together. Press Garden had two strange ideas and combined them surprisingly well (A newspaper factory converted from a chapel that changes into a snowing cherry blossom forest) So I'm not really bothered by the idea of something like this.

    My main problem is that there is so much reused assets, like, holy shit, why does this game look like it had a worse budget than Colors or even Lost World, at they very least Lost World was creative in its ventures, this just looks absolutely lazy, you could just make this into Casino Night, and you would be changing NOTHING.
     
  9. RikohZX

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    I'll say this; the level design is better than Green Hill's, despite all the laziness and general physics screwery. You can see multiple routes, ways to bypass certain obstacles if you handle sections right, and overall it looks more like a Sonic level even if I don't like it all that much. The music is also a lot better demonstration of using the old Gens/MD FM synth than Green Hill was. The general problem is that it still looks like a downgrade compared to Generations, and the theme itself almost sort of shoehorned and obligatory like how Lost World randomly had a casino level for the hell of it with no context.

    It may just be because there's limited hands-on time with the Classic stages besides the Egg Dragoon boss fight, this is the first time outside sources have been able to play a genuine Classic stage, but it also feels like Classic's stages are easily two to three times longer than the Modern and Avatar stages so far. I know I'm constantly making compliments followed by a backhanded retort but I do want to see this game do well - I just have a very, very stingy perception of it and a highly critical mindset.
     
  10. Kyuu

    Kyuu

    Memory Access Violation Member
    I like the idea behind Casino Forest, but I don't think the execution is working too well here - it kinda feels like they just copied Frozen Factory's casino stage into the backdrop of whichever Silent Forest level had the god-awful stealth section.

    ...And, to be honest, it looks like that's what they've done, too. :v:
     
  11. Generic "poor physics, bad level design, over-abundance of dash pads" comment.
     
  12. Xiao Hayes

    Xiao Hayes

    Classic Eggman art Member
    Oh, great! They released footage from the rejected early prototype of Sonic 4 Ep. 3! What? Are you saying this is actually Sonic Forces on its final stage of development? Let's be serious, man, don't joke with that; this can't be something finished and about to release. What? You're not kidding? Oh my hog, this made me SAD again! I mean, "Seek And Destroy" (target: the game and its developers).
     
  13. Tomadom

    Tomadom

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    To me, it just looks like they took what Casino Night Zone had at times, put it over a ruin-themed area, added a few slopes and springs, then called it a day.

    A lot of people have already said this, but I do think the idea of a Casino in some ruins is interesting, albeit really weird. However, it feels like they just plastered whatever they could find from Sonic 2, and it makes it look uninspiring. If they added more of a ruin theme to the level layouts and gameplay instead of just a background element, they could go have an interesting level on their hands. Perhaps Modern Sonic or the Avatar (or even Shadow) will take the idea and expand upon it, but I'm doubtful. At the very least, the physics look alright in the pinball sections, and the music doesn't sound too much like it's trying to be a Classic Sonic tune.
     
  14. Ritz

    Ritz

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    Casino Forest is one of the saddest things I've seen in these games. Actual somber sad, not pathetic sad. Recycling aside, the intent to ape the classic Sonic look is there, but it looks like one of those Sonic GDK mods where someone took some stock Unreal backgrounds and laid out some Sonic-appropriate prefabs along one axis. Remember how Generations' 2D segment sometimes had Sonic moving into and out of the background in true 2.5D fashion? I don't think they can afford to do that much anymore- they don't have the manpower to micromanage the level geometry like that, and they don't want to rotate the camera because the scene is only set up to look like a casino from this angle. There's no integration between the two themes, which is a recurring problem for this game. Where did all of their talent go? Did Marza abduct everyone for The Gift, leaving them with just the downstream department of level artists geared towards assembling assets over creating them? They downsized going from Generations to Lost World and they just kept on going. Now they have no modellers, no concept artists and no musicians (this song sucks).

    Not only is the scene inconsistent, it's inconsistent with the tone of the game as a whole, which is what really makes this so surreal. These casino bits are so intrinsically classic Sonic that I'll bet the maps for the other two characters won't feature any casino elements at all. Their application is so superficial, it'd be as simple as turning the casino layer off. Classic and modern Sonic never could coexist, but if they wind up bisecting the game's visual identity too, while also keeping classic Sonic segregated from the rest of the plot like they apparently are? That's going to be really weird, and really sloppy.

    Now, the sad part is that I've never once doubted Sonic Team's competence in any field other than game design: '06 was objectively poor, but we can at least piece together the development history of that game and see a production gone awry with technical issues and poor direction. It happens to the best of studios, they're just brave enough to cancel those games. Now in recent years, we've finally managed to connect with the Japanese devs, we've made our needs known and they're actually trying to satisfy them, but they can't because they've clearly laid off too much of their staff and their lack of direction goes deeper than we ever realized. Sadder still that this is definitely the best part of the game so far. It looks interesting enough, and the level design comes closer to classic Sonic than ever with more verticality, more intersections, more gimmicks and a willingness to redirect the player's movement. Shame the underlying game is so sloppy.
     
  15. Sean Evans

    Sean Evans

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    Okay, so gameplay and graphics aside, I think the ruins-casino theme is really fucking stupid. While some others have pointed out how lazily put together it is, it's also just kind of...random for no reason. Remember how Colors had weird level themes, but they were all justified via the game's premise and execution. Every locale a new weird attraction Eggman basically built on top of something else, and they always find ways to subtly work in an amusement park aspect to each of them. Yeah they were random, but they were put together in ways that felt like an actual place you could travel through. it was a genuinely clever way of going about it. Now true, the premise of this game is that Eggman's conquered the world, and we haven't gotten all of the details from the story yet, but just from looking at this I have no idea what purpose or benefit this place is meant to hold. It's literally just...some casino buildings and attractions in some ruins...why?

    If I need a lengthy cutscene, or extensive dialogue to figure out the purpose or identity of an area, then that probably means they didn't give a shit and threw assets around. If that was the case then hell, why not just do that more and create "original level tropes". Why not have a city inside a volcano? An island in outer space! A desert made of bread! A factory that just so happens to double as a forest...wait. Admittedly, these are all some interesting ideas, and can lead to some very creative levels! But if the farthest it goes is, "we dropped shit from city escape into red mountain", then what's the point. The same goes for "Desert" Green Hill, it's Green Hill with fucking sand in it, is that really the most you could do to demonstrate that the level is "dying". No wilted flowers, craters in the ground, maybe change the "entire" palette instead of parts of it? Even some of the WORST Sonic games have had levels that were interesting enough that I want to play through them. Nothing in this game draws me in. I look at something and then look away from lack of interest.
     
  16. Ritz

    Ritz

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    Yeah, exactly. And to corroborate the "Marza stole Sonic Team's art department" theory, I don't feel like hunting for it, but I remember something similar being said in this presentation. Something to the effect of "as an animation studio we didn't have much experience working with game engines, so we tapped our partners at Sega for help"- anyone want to confirm?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5XYNRH1nns
     
  17. Tiller

    Tiller

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    Disagree. Sonic levels don't need a purpose. The problem with the trope combination is that one theme is barely integrated with the other. It looks like an asset slap considering the only Casino part of the stage are the same small building copy pasted in a row in the background. The ruinish area being run on looks like its completely different from the lit up background, the forest doesn't do anything but pay background lip service. You don't run through a foresty section, you don't go into one of the casino buildings. It's all dressing and no substance.
     
  18. I'm at the point now where people saying they're still going to buy, or are even still considering buying it, actively annoys me. This game looks bad. Don't people know the difference between good and bad? There are so many actually good games out there. Quite a few still being released this year, even. Go buy Super Mario Odyssey or something.
     
  19. Ritz

    Ritz

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    Tangential Creators' Wisdom aside: Every world needs a purpose. The alternative is purposelessness, which isn't attractive to humans and our pattern recognition-dependent brains. We're always reading purpose where there isn't any, which is how surrealist works and contemporary installation art still have clout in the traditional art world. I say that art left up to interpretation is bad art, but the open invitation for a viewer to inject their own meaning into meaningless work is what keeps those schools alive.

    Casino Forest doesn't get that free pass because it's a concrete setting with a given explanation: Eggman found these ruins and decided to turn them into a casino. That's unsatisfying because the explanation doesn't make sense, it's just a dead end ruling out even the possibility of interpretation. Bad concept.
     
  20. Stimil Rc.

    Stimil Rc.

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    Damn, these topics move fast. I'll probably just echo someone else has already said, some I'll keep it short:

    While the level design is still pretty simplistic and short, Casino Forest looking to have more visible paths to it than Green Hill raises my hopes some that I'll be able to at least enjoy Forces for what it is, even if it falls short of what I'd like it to be.

    Despite feeling like a mishmash of Casino Night and Mystic Cave, I love what's going on visually. It looks like it was intended to be a ruined casino, but it instead looks more like a casino built on ruins as part of some sort of tourist attraction. I'm kinda disappointed that no part of the stage is submerged in water. Functionally, it'd probably just be Casino Night underwater, but it'd probably look really nice.

    The instrumentation is still grating (and I'm someone who wasn't that bothered by Sonic 4's), but I'm enjoying this MCZ inspired melody a lot more than I did Green Hill's.