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Sonic Mania (Switch, PS4, Xbox One, PC...Netflix?)

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by TimmiT, Jul 23, 2016.

  1. doc eggfan

    doc eggfan

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    After waiting for the PC release, and finding some time, I've finally played through the game once, and managed to avoid most of the spoilers. I played a few zones a night, I almost cried with joy the first few nights, but towards the end I felt there was too much rehashing of the old zones, especially the S3K zones. If we were stuck with retreading old ideas, some re-imagined 8-bit zones would have been nice (I want to see a zone with Act 1 Scrambled Egg and Act 2 Crystal Egg).

    As it was, I loved the little 8-bit throwbacks. Anyone else get a Sky Base (8-bit sonic 1) vibe from Flying Battery Act 2?

    Also, I want to know whether my #tentaclechestclaw4sonicmania campaign from last year actually worked to get the game changed to include 8-bit Silver Sonic, or whether I was super prescient and called it super early?
     
  2. 360

    360

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    This is pretty much how it went for me. Overwhelming joy at the beginning with all the touches, throwbacks and awesome ideas that are just too many to list and then depleting enjoyment as the game reached Titanic Monarch with the realisation that there's only four new zones, the missing level transitions destroying cohesion, the lack of Ice Cap Zone when I wanted it to be there and other small disappointments.

    I think the game's issue is that the first Studiopolis footage promised the world with this game (as in, much more original content like that) so there was a tinge of disappointment.

    Don't get me wrong however. I did fucking love the game and I'm super excited to see if there's a potential Sonic Mania 2 or whatever Taxman/Stealth end up working on next.
     
  3. Lilly

    Lilly

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    I'm curious as well, because my first thought upon seeing Silver Sonic was you. :) The GameGear sounds going with it was adorable.

    That, among other gimmicks from the Gamegear series making a return in Mania, made me want another game like Mania, composed of GG/SMS levels mixed in with some new ones. I think that would make for a cute experience, and quite refreshing since none of them have been revisited as often as the Genesis titles.

    LakeFepard has attempted something like this in one of his fan games, and the idea of a Sonicvania, I believe, works very well. While Sonic obviously wouldn't be allowed to have a sword, like he does in Lake's fan game, there's so much potential for expanding the mechanical depth of Sonic in other areas, like you said. If done right, the entire experience and its story would feel very natural and cohesive. There's already have a working example we can point to that says it can be done.

    I was very appreciative of the timer options for Sonic Advance 3. Searching for chaos gets to be tedious if you have a timer ticking down your neck. (Or in Mania's case, special stage rings.)

    Including an option for the timer kill switch would harm no one who likes it there by default, if not improve the experience for those who like to have a look around. The strength in Sonic's physics based gameplay is that there's not really one defined way to play it; no two people will tackle obstacles in each level exactly the same way.
     
  4. doc eggfan

    doc eggfan

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    One very simple thing you could do rather than bigger levels/metroidvania is to drop the linear level progression and institute an OutRun style branching pyramid, where skilled play leads to different, more difficult, higher tiered levels and eventually the good ending. Makes multiple playthroughs more interesting to see the zones you haven't seen yet.
     
  5. XCubed

    XCubed

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    They actually did that partially with Shadow the Hedgehog, but I know what you were getting at.

    Meanwhile I only died a couple times as Knuckles in the OOZ boss. The hardest part was getting back up on a platform after I defeated it! I didn't want to go through the victory only to die in the oil!
     
  6. Frostav

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    This is a cool idea, but the problem is that a playthrough of the game becomes REALLY short, unless you have a ton of levels (like, a TON). Outrun's junctions are tiny and linear, compared to a full-blown Sonic level.

    An idea I think which would work would be to have a particular set of levels where getting a quick time on a Zone takes you to a secret zone (somewhat like how you can get to side chapters in Fire Emblem by beating campaign levels in a certain set of turns). Make the time requirement low enough that first time players wont get it, and you can surprise them on their second playthrough when they're good enough to get under the time limit.
     
  7. Andeh

    Andeh

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    I really hate Titanic Monarch zone. I've had so many bullshit deaths in this it gave me flashbacks to SAdv2.
     
  8. doc eggfan

    doc eggfan

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    I'm not opposed to shorter play throughs and lots of levels, but I don't mind your solution either.

    I can imagine situations like the first mini boss on Angel Island in Sonic 3, that if you defeat it fast enough you stop the jungle being set on fire, and so you play through a different not-on-fire interpretation of the zone.

    Also consider something like the past version of Metallic Madness, where the zone is still in the process of being constructed. I can imagine encountering that zone halfway through the game on an A ranked run, followed by brand new unseen zones in the later half. In contrast, on a C or F ranked run, you'd encounter the no longer in construction but fully completed Metallic Madness towards the end of the game as one of the final zones.

    Reading through some of the early responses on (console) launch day, I'm really surprised at the vitriol directed at the difficulty level. I thought the whole thing was far too easy. Things like the boss at the end of Studiopolis, I would have liked to have seen more of the creative weather based attacks, but I barely saw two before I sent Robotnik packing.
     
  9. TimmiT

    TimmiT

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    The Dutch Control Magazine had an interview with Picomy on them developing the game: http://control-online.nl/gamesindustrie/2017/09/14/het-is-een-enorme-eer-dat-we-deel-uitmaken-van-sonic-mania/

    Did a quick translation:
     
  10. This needs to be acknowledged more often. Speed is fun, but I will always appreciate flow a lot more. It was my main concern going into Mania, but thankfully, it delivered on that front. The game almost never interrupts you, and when it does, you don't have to wait for too long. It's actually one of the reasons I prefer it over S3&K.
     
  11. As someone who read into this debate about Time Limit, I thought of a pretty nifty compromise that I think most will agree with.

    Time Overs should exist as 10 minute entities throughout the level, but once you reach the boss the timer should continue rather than freeze, but Time Over should be disabled. This way you can still encourage the player to keep playing the level and not waste time, while also allowing the timer to exist + allowing the time bonus to be a thing.

    I don't think bosses should freeze or disable the timer, but for bosses like Heavy Gunner I think it's important going forward that Time Over is relegated to parts of the game where the player can control the pace at will.
     
  12. foXcollr

    foXcollr

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    I think "perfect solution" might not be entirely accurate. And, to be fair, the modern games hardly allow for any exploration or backtracking, with all the springs and rails that take you to points of no return. Having a time limit wouldn't really get in the way of exploration at all because the boost levels are meant to be played like roller coasters. The gameplay style is entirely different between the two examples.

    Theoretically, removing the timer completely just brings back the problem that the timer seeks to fix: in levels where it's possible to backtrack, you can continue to find rings and items and collect 1-ups, farming lives ad infinitum, whereas the game is designed for you to generally just take one path and continue to move forward. This can be solved through the level design, but it creates another gripe that some players have, the presence of anti-backtracking barriers. Even when done organically, the presence of anti-backtracking terrain in the levels can start to funnel the player into each area, making it feel like they're not allowed to explore the level the way they want to. With the funnels and barriers, the player is denied control over where they go in the level, and the game loses its exploratory element. With the time limit, the player is given a level that gives them much more opportunity to explore, but is punished for taking too long to do so. Maybe the issue could be the nature of rings and collectibles? If rings and monitors weren't as valuable to the player for farming lives, the level could allow you to continue for as long as you want and acknowledge that there is a risk associated with it. But then that would make it much more difficult for players (especially new players) to make it through a level. Maybe the issue could also be with the location of these rings and items. If the majority of collectibles are kept locked up in high routes or down in low routes, with no ability to return after reaching the end of the stage, that would make it less likely that the player can backtrack and farm. Making the middle/main path constantly accessible and backtrack-able, with less rings and less item boxes (almost like the middle paths in Mania), would mean the player can move back and access the level at any time, with plenty of areas to scope out, but the big rewards would be inaccessible the second time through. I realize this is generally what Mania does with its level design to begin with, but the level isn't always accessible because point of no returns are frequent in some stages, and in levels like Green Hill where you can generally do a lot of backtracking, the big secrets are sometimes still accessible.

    Point in case: IMO, getting rid of the timer may alleviate some of the more uncommon cheapness the game offers, but it also exposes a few gameplay flaws that would need to be addressed to satisfy both the exploration crowd and the fair game crowd.

    As for resetting the timer at the boss, I don't see why that wouldn't work. The end timer doesn't have to ONLY count the boss time. The game can just add up both your level time and your boss time and use that as your total time, but you wouldn't have to worry about dying from time overs during the boss. It would be better than freezing the timer, which would screw up scoring and make the bosses irrelevant to speedruns. The timer could even be shorter for the boss, or count down so the player knows exactly how much time they have, but maybe that would pressure players too much.
     
  13. Dissent

    Dissent

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    We will never see another Sonic game like Mania and this thread is why.

    Almost every page has someone complaining about some classic Sonic mechanic that they don't like. The latest argument is that death pits should be clearly marked or removed entirely. Gamers have changed for the worse :colbert:
     
  14. Stimil Rc.

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    Why does it matter if a player decides to waste their time grinding lives and how does a time limit prevent them from doing so in the absence of annoying backtrack-unfriendly level design?

    My take on the whole matter? The time limit accomplishes little more than limiting those that want to explore (most likely looking for those extremely well hidden special stage rings). Even with the increased zone sizes, it doesn't take much effort to get to the end of a zone if you're just heading straight to the end (not even in Titanic Monarch), but some bosses can last for so long regardless of how skillfully you play that any attempt to explore beforehand can result in not having enough time to beat it.

    They could just reset the time limit at the boss, but the question remains: What is it accomplishing beyond being a nuisance?

    If you want to challenge the player, do it with the level design itself. If you want them to beat a stage quickly, give them perks for speedrunning.
    Well, to be fair, it's not always clear what's a pit and what's not, though I don't remember this being a problem for me aside from one time in GHZ2.

    Edit:

    This is probably the closest we're ever gonna get to Sonic Mania on a handheld console:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8z0E_na488

    Can't wait until Denuvo is cracked. A PSP should be able to handle Mania, right?
     
  15. TimmiT

    TimmiT

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    To be fair that thread is also filled with people defending the game. That and bottomless pits being indiscernible from pits that just bring you to a different path is a fair criticism, even if that's not something that actually happens all that much in Mania.

    Also, since when have gamers not complained about everything? Plus hey guess what other forum has people constantly trying to nitpick stuff in Sonic games.

    EDIT: That PSP thing is cool but uhm, Nintendo Switch is a handheld console Sonic Mania is already on so that's already the closest thing we have to Mania on a handheld. :v:
     
  16. Overlord

    Overlord

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    FINALLY, bloody Eggfan posts about Mania. I've been waiting to see your reaction to the Silver Sonic for a month, given you were also my first thought on seeing it =P
     
  17. Dissent

    Dissent

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    It makes sense to me for enthusiasts to nitpick in their own little space like here, that happens with everything that has a fanbase. It concerns me when it leaks in to the public areas like Twitter, Youtube, NeoGaf, etc because I expect these louder criticisms to be the starting point for improvement on a followup. If we ever do get something else like Mania, I don't want to start seeing Eggman signs above pits and less "unfair" moments leading to a boring hold-right-to-win game. :( I know, I'm overly worried...
     
  18. doc eggfan

    doc eggfan

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    To fully flesh out my reaction, I had somewhat mixed feelings. I loved that it made a cameo and I agree that the sound effects were perfect, but the execution wasn't exactly what I had in mind. On the plus side, the key mechanic of a good Silver Sonic fight was carried over in that rebounding and ricocheting off each other in ball form is the secret to victory - something that other metal sonic fights never really captured - but it didn't quite have the same nerve shattering tension that was felt in the original 8-bit masterpiece. It's probably the widescreen format that partly ruins it, but also the way that Silver is downgraded to a one-hit kills cannon fodder sidekick that really lets it down - that stung a little. Even if it only took 3 hits to destroy a Silver Sonic before another was generated, it would have been better than one, that's no different to a regular badnik.

    If I had my way, I probably would've given metal sonic a break and not included him at all, giving Silver a chance to shine all on his own. Even if I did and keep the boss fight the same, how much better would it have been if the arena was slightly more confined, and Silver was indestructible, rebounding off both Sonic and Metal Sonic. You could even play off some rivalry between both of Robotnik's creations, ostensibly they are working together to kill Sonic, but at the same time are trying to undermine each other.

    Also, the tentacle claw is supposed to be a surprise that explodes from the chest, not the arms. The arms are flame spewing rockets used for flight and defence. I also always imagined the transition from standing to rolling in a ball as a kind of liquid metal T-1000 thing, but that detail didn't really shine through in the new sprite either.

    Still, I'm nitpicking. I didn't hate it, I still have more love than hate. It's just not how I would have done it.
     
  19. TimmiT

    TimmiT

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    To be fair: threads on NeoGAF tend to mostly consist of fans of the game the thread is about at a certain point when it's many pages in.
     
  20. Well, if the devs are clever (which I know they are otherwise Mania wouldn't even exist) they will completely disregard all shit requests from a portion of the fanbase and just stick with their vision moving forwards.

    Side note: This is the danger of making sequels, be it games or Albums (music), and why it's so crucial to go with your gut and not try to please everyone.