I think the important distinction here would be consistency VS technical limitations. I wouldn't use the label on a retro game with consistently good visuals (e.g. Shovel Knight), but rather one that fails to achieve a consistent style on the technical limitations it tries to emulate. (Inconsistent art style, mismatched pixel sizes, inconsistent palette choices, bad shading, etc.). Classic sonic games hardly fall under that lack of consistency, while it's very common for fangames to not emulate those limitations very well. Mania does not have that problem except for the minor gripes people have pointed out IMO.
On the topic of old zones, I really have to say I'm impressed with Metallic Madness in this game. They took one of the most groan-inducing, not fun Sonic stages for me, and made it into one of the best parts of the game. It's actually incredible, I think it's definitely the most improved of the old stages. Both acts actually feel heavily remixed in this case, which is likely a result of them altering the level design to adhere to the standards Mania has.
People are very hard to please here it seems. I mean woowww. I see some legitimate things said here like the lack of cutscenes or the old levels. Fine, if that is inconsistent to you and can make it feel off then I can respect that, and I agree that is room to improve. Doesnt ring 'fangame' to me whatsoever but hey. Calling it fangame rather than actually discussing the real points in the first place is just a cheap attempt to discredit the game. I want to make a point: Look, this game was NEVER going to have 100% original levels, I'm sure it wasn't in the Team's control, so I don't see why people are complaining about that rather than salivating at how the Mania team dealt with this limitation in the literal best way possible. It's as if no one has mentioned the classic levels in mania before! :D But for a few posts now people actually complaining about the art in various ways? This is the best art in any Sonic endeavour, ever, and it's getting digs? I really don't see where they could improve with the art, it's top knotch stuff guys. The robot trash pits in FBZ look incredible, what's wrong with them? I like that they actually bring some colour to the 2 tone stage. FBZ is the most uninteresting dull design in any of the classics imo. The HBH in Green hill looked fine, like literally what could be different? Sonic 3 sprites? Tyson's animations ingame? What about what we already have? Obviously not good enough for you guys. I really don't get the complaints. I'd really like to see real reasons behind things like this cause it feels like people just complain because... Sonic fans really cant be satisfied.
I've had to stop myself from posting here a bunch recently, pursuant to that. Yuji Naka could offer up a real Sonic 4 from alt-world 1996 on a silver platter and half the people here would still nitpick it. It's not a game problem, it's a people problem. Never happy with anything.
I can see why it's a thing though. Years of mediocrity have led some to bitterness and being hyper critical. I mean I think Mania is great. Perfect? No. But it's still my favorite Sonic game in years if not my favorite.
I think people exactly gave reasons above, and honestly why bother turning it into generalised complaints about people to defend generalised complaints about a thing. Edit - much ninja. Moving on from that now... Really, many thanks for that info Neo. Now that it's got solid footing as a legitimate part of Knuckles' moveset, missing from Mania, I'm going to ask quite a lot if it can be put back. />
Its definitely not perfect, no game ever will be. Expectations will grow and things will continuously improve, and need to improve more. Sadly though, the thread has become 'if I made mania id do it this way'. Just non-constructive prods at the game, as if it's not the best so far.
Right. And I'm not saying this game is like immune to criticism or anything (it's a paid product after all), but like, we know these guys, they read these comments, and they put their noses to the grindstone of game-dev and Sonic Team's restrictions and against all odds ultimately delivered what most of us have been asking for for years. The prospect of another GOOD Sonic game coming down the pike is uncertain right now, no matter how well Mania may or may not be doing. Better to have some perspective and enjoy this game for the miracle it is, as it is, if you ask me.
Define "non-constructive". I've seen nothing of the sort. I mean, the shading style of the sprites often clashes with the style of the revisited stages. It's very pronounced in the GHZ cutscene cause...all the HBH are there. And it's also to be expected, because they were never going to match the art direction of every revisited stage. But I would have loved Mania even more if they had. And I too prefer Sonic 3's sprites. Big deal, I'm not saying Mania is shit now. But I would have loved Mania even more if the sprites were based on Sonic 3's. People can have complaints and still love a game. You don't seem to understand that.
Exactly. I'd consider Sonic 3 & Knuckles the greatest game ever made, but I'm still going to talk about how crap it is that the MGZ miniboss is too much like Sonic 2's MCZ boss, that the second FBZ miniboss is just a more boring version of Sonic 2's WFZ boss, that the LRZ boss is just a terrible waiting game, that all of the SSZ bosses are rehashes, that the DEZ final boss starts off almost exactly the same as the LRZ miniboss, that CNZ, ICZ, LBZ, and DEZ don't really have proper remixes for the Act 2 music, that LRZ2's music doesn't fit LRZ2 (but it fits HPZ) and should be changed, that there are a few points in the game where what you're supposed to do isn't very clear, and that the game is buggy as all shit. It just means that I don't think these complaints counterbalance the enjoyment I have playing the game enough for me to think another game is better. Some of the complaints I have about Mania do bring it down, but still not enough for me to prefer Sonic 1 or Sonic 2.
I've actually been pretty hard on Mania in earlier parts of this thread. My expectations for it were admittedly sky-high and I was genuinely let down by some of the recycling aspects of about 4-5 acts, not to mention the lack of at least one more fully new zone. I feel the game was held back from some potential that it should have had, and I hope a sequel resolves this. Having said that, I am otherwise immensely satisfied with the project. With the exception of a few things like Hydrocity act 2, every stage is 'very' well designed, be it a remix or a fully new level. I disagree with numerous nitpicks that others here have mentioned. I 'do' wish Mirage Saloon Act 1 was a STK level rather than... well... Knuckles only for the ground part, but again, the stage is still well made and very fun to play. I've purchased the game on 2 platforms, including one CE purchased directly from retail I was not initially planning to get. I've voted with my dollar and promoted the game to numerous people I know. I'm happy with what we got, but I believe we still need one more fully original title from this franchise before I can truly have my thirst for an s3&K successor fulfilled. If Mania is all we ever get I will enjoy it for what it is, but I will still be sad if that's it. There's potential for so much more from this team/company if they just listen. Either give me one more fully original mania title, or 2 more partially remixed ones and I'll be satisfied.
Put me in the not-as-small-as-I-imagined group who prefer the Sonic 3 sprites' style. Kudos to them for channeling the more iconic look and upgrading it, but yeah, Sonic 3 all the way for me.
I understand it, it's just that more and more I personally question what the point is of spending so much effort and time scrutinising everything to such an excruciating detail. Not just here and not just Sonic, either. Dissecting the frog and killing it in the process, is what it looks like to me. But if you're all honestly having fun doing this, then don't let me rain on your parade. Go nuts.
Ah. I see where you've gone wrong. You think it requires effort on our part to find these "nitpicks". No sir, the problems I have with Mania I noticed right away. I'm cool like that.
It can be annoying to read a lot of "negative" comments (I put it in quotes as what's positive/negative is all in perception). I'll be honest, when I read critical comments on here that I didn't agree with, part of me wanted to say, "Why can't we all just love this!" Any stupid-detail nitpicks that I do is because of only one thing: I've enjoyed quality in the past with the franchise, therefore I demand quality in the future for the franchise. I feel that is true for most fans who post critical comments: they're passionate, they love the franchise, and they want to put out there what they disliked so developers can consider the feedback for future titles. I feel like our vocal feedback has played a HUGE role at transforming the franchise into what it is today -- a LOT better. None of any critical feedback means this game isn't quality. This is one of THE highest quality Sonic title I've played in decades. This is an INCREDIBLE game, I want more of it. I also want the developers to not get comfortable -- this quality must continue for us to heal as a broken community from years of abuse from poor titles. I feel that I am not being a proper fan if I don't voice my criticism. The criticism isn't because I hate what I'm playing, it's because I want to continue enjoying what I'm playing. If there is something I am a critic on, and no one agrees -- that's fine, it's just me. Put it under the rug. However, if there's a common subject a lot of fans voice their critical feedback on -- developers will be more apt to hear that, and highly consider it as they develop future titles. Let me restate: this game is awesome. I'm nitpicking because Sonic deserves that treatment. He deserves for us to look at the stupid small details like clouds because we want the quality to be that good. Overall, the Mania team did that, and that's why this community, overall (if you look at things birdseye view), is very happy with the title.
If we are expected to get a big patch for the game along side the PC release next week, I would rather have that version on a physical media than the original launch version. Perhaps it was a consideration and they didn't want to possibly ship the game in its current state in physical form. We wouldn't want Mania to suffer from something akin to Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 5. Aaron keeps saying "we don't have any news on that [physical release] right now" when answering questions about during the live streams. :thinking:
Anyone know about a speedcap / drag in Mania? There is absolutely some kind of slowdown applied when running really fast and pressing jump. I know Sonic 1,2, CD had speed caps but as far as I knew Sonic 3 had none.
Aside from bug fixes, I can think of only a few, minor things that I'd like changed about this game. "Fangame" does not do it justice--this game looks and plays like the professionally made product it is.
