Spoiler-free Sonic Mania discussion thread

Sigh, still waiting as well. In the meanwhile playing in Agents of Mayhem and Starcraft: Remastered (I've finished the game twice, but new engine looks delicious, so I want to see all campaigns again). Speaking about Sonic Mania and Starcraft: Remastered - I really wish that more "big" developers could use power of today PCs to show us really great looking 2D games. I know that nowadays 3D looks so good, that almost nobody bother anymore with cut-scenes made "separately" (e.g. animated movies), but 2D games are much better in showing some impressive details, which are oftenly missed when we're looking on 3D games (not always because they're "not there", but also due to different specific of graphics and the fact that we're looking on 3D dimension and need to "split" attention in more directions than in case of 2D games).

Although I admit, that while on the one hand I'm trying to avoid any "spoiler-source", on the other I don't feel especially strong need to avoid them at all costs - it's a platform game, with (if I understood correctly) plot on the level of first Sonic games. It's not an adventure game or cRPG, where spoilers about plot/levels could seriously hurt pleasure from playing.

Yeah... It was one of the reasons why I've totally resigned from FB and never bothered with twitter (ok, I have here accounts, but only for some promos/freebies, which requires to "like"/"tweet" something). It's a total mess, where people can throw literally everything, including totally repulsive stuff (had twice during my studies such cases).

 

I hope no one considers this a spoiler, but reception for Mania is excellent.

Unfortunately, all we can infer from this is that we will be seeing a lot more Classic Sonic shoehorned into 3D games, which are totally JUST FINE and definitely not fundamentally flawed so don't even go ther OKAy...

 

Or it could lead to the opposite, where they just put Modern on the back burner and put the emphasis on Classic Sonic while trying to figure out a way to make Modern as good as Classic.

I think the reception and sales of this and Sonic Forces are going to lead to some interesting outcomes. If they're both good, maybe they'll keep going down this path. We already know this did well reception wise (sales are yet to be seen but I'm confident the game will at least make a profit), Sonic Forces though could tank, and then they're going to have to take a good hard look at the Modern series to figure out what's going on, because despite their best efforts of resisting the proof is right in front of them now, people just like well made Classic style games better. In fact the Sonic Twitter posted how this is the best rated Sonic game in over 15 years. That says a lot.

I am hoping that it at least will remind Sonic Team that it's ok to make short games. The replayability comes from the fun of the stages. I'd rather have a game that has 12 levels with lots to explore than a game with 30 levels where most of them are filler.

 

With SEGA allowing indie fans to make a big title, I'm assuming that SEGA has a brain.

Since they have a brain now, as a classic fan, I'm stoked and hopeful they take this data and do big things with it. Unfortunately, they can't kill modern Sonic. His fanbase has grown too large. I'll be surprised if Sonic Forces doesn't tank, and will be curious what they do with modern in the future (just make SA3 please).

 

I'm going to vote no on that. If anything I hope that this game will remind them that the approach of "different characters that fundamentally play the same but with some differences can play through the same levels in different ways" is more fun than "different characters with drastically different goals in the same game, because hunt for Emeralds why not that screams Sonic."

 

I personally would be okay with different characters that played similar under the "Sonic Adventure 3" banner. While SA1 and SA2 had that terrible formula, I feel like it doesn't have to continue said formula to qualify for being a sequel.

Sonic Adventure, to me, is a large epic with a cast of characters that go through the adventure with their own story. Sonic 06 could've been that (thankfully, it wasn't).

 

Reality:

This. The modern fanbase is pretty big outside of our Retro side of things I reckon. If Forces tanks then maybe we'll see a return to the adventure style... maybe. But whatever happens, I predict that Modern will probably just flip flop like he normally does.

Fantasy:

I want Modern Sonic to get beaten with a really long whippy stick then fashioned into a 'guy', to be incinerated on bonfire night - complete with 'penny for the guy' signage. Then a drunk bloke in Classic Sonic cosplay can piss on his ashes whilst all the modern kids cry and the classic old farts applaud, whoop and cheer - Followed by a knees up in the local with a DJ spinning classic tunes. Too far? :v:

 

Sounds good to me. But being reasonable, they should just keep 2 branches ongoing and apart.

Mania 2 should keep everything basically the same, only just new stages, and perhaps upscale the resolution to HD (a la S2HD) because retraux will likely have limited appeal next go-around. Classic will need to evolve somewhat or review scores will slowly decline. Mania was a test positive, but minimal growth is always necessary for ongoing appeal/sales.

Modern on the other hand probably should go the Adventure route, only Sega needs to limit their focus to maybe 2 or 3 characters and prove they can do that. I mean god damn, just call the next 3D Sonic game, "Sonic and Tails". Only 2 playable characters, but put a lot of depth into both. But more than anything, and I know this is going to be nothing but controversial, they need to NOT listen to modern fans demands, because 90% these people will eat shit off a plate.

Frankly, us old farts were right about Classic, and I'd wager we are right about Modern too...

 

Though I'm PC only, luckily a good friend of mine has a PS4, so I was able to double-dip and get that version. I wish I could play it on my own time 24/7, but this is obviously plenty for now. Well, I'll see you guys on the other side!

 

Twitter can be very organized if you know how to use it, disable retweets on people you only follow for original content, and avoid the endless ocean of "shitposters" with their reaction GIFs cluttering up the timeline.

However, in my opinion, nothing replaces a web forum. (Especially in the case of bug reports here.) Forums are much more organized for discourse and discussions at length.

I second that. If they're both kept separate, I think Boost gameplay would finally have a chance to stand on its own without a less interesting tag-along gameplay format. (KazeBlade had a neat video about this.) And Modern Sonic can take more risks of the edgier variety, if it wants. :v:

But, knowing Sonic Team, that may or may not happen. We'll have to see how another game beyond Forces looks.

 

I know of more than one dev project that actually accepts bug reports over Twitter, and it's probably the easiest way to get directly into contact with someone on the Mania dev team that people know about.

 

Pardon the disagreement, but Sega is only padding the boost games with Classic Sonic, and other gimmicks because of in the inherent flaws in designing boost-style games, which Sega has already admitted themselves. In particular, the amount of time and resources required to create such long linear tracks zones. But I don't disagree that boost needs to stand on its own legs if it is ever to succeed. I just don't think that style of play is worthy of an icon like Sonic, it certainly hasn't done the brand any favors as time has gone on. They have put a lot of work into it though, so maybe pair it with a different IP. Sonic is just capable of so much more, to be stuck with this boost quagmire for so long is a tragedy, shit on a plate, and all...

But off topic, hopefully these reviews may point to a Mania sequel.

 

They did, that's what Sonic Heroes was. Sonic levels with added beat'em up sections and a tails crutch to help with the platforming.

 

I just crashed the game on Switch by doing a bubble bounce right when the level started in CPZ Act 2.

 

If they ever do try Adventure again, they should do what they with the classics: Get ONE character working. Then in the sequel, add more characters, based on the playstyle of the first. Let's be honest here: When people (including myself) say they liked Sonic Adventure, they're only referring to the Sonic levels, and usually the Chao Garden. I'd rather they perfect Sonic's play before worrying about anyone else.

Anyway, to all you PC people: It's worth the wait. I won't say anymore.

 

Amy's gameplay in Sonic Adventure was good, so Sonic wasn't the only one worth playing as. Although, beyond Amy and Knuckles, the rest felt like such an afterthought.

I mostly think of the chaos bug reporting was for FP2's Sample Version, until the bug report Github was made. Everything is all in one place, duplicate reports happen less often, etc. Although if other devs don't mind the occasional redundancy and false flags in Twitter reports, they have more patience than I do. :specialed:

Seeing as Sonic Mania is the highest rated Sonic game in 15 years, I similarly hope this leads to more games, even if they're not direct sequels. There's so much potential to evolve the classic gameplay now.

As for Boost, the sheer length of those stages is certainly intimidating on the developer's side. (And a lot of work for render farms.) Given that, it would be something to see another attempt to break away from Unleashed's mold. Heck, at this point, I'll take a Sonic game where he controls more like a skateboard than a motorcycle soaring uncontrollably past 300 MPH. :v:

 

Ya that's a good point about the skateboard, imagine a hub world like in Adventure where Sonic could actually use his physics and upgraded abilities to reach new areas. There is so much potential there, but hardly possible with the janky movement Modern Sonic is known for, at low speeds in particular.

But regarding a follow up to Mania, it can't just be all about nostalgia moving forward, because that card loses its power with each use. What really scares me is that Sega could misinterpret the love for Mania as largely the result of nostalgia, and thereby either beat it until its dead (ruining his legacy altogether) or Sega is aware the nostalgias diminishing returns and thereby fail to greenlight a sequel.

If/when Mania does get a follow up, I feel very strongly that it should not do 2.5D, or in other words 3D models on a 2D perspective. I know they probably would because it's likely cheaper, but that hand drawn look of S2HD just looked so right. It looked even better than NSMB. Maybe Sonic 4 is what ruined it for me, but 3D renders (ep. 1) and 3D models (ep.2) just didn't have the soul that S2HD did. And I feel if Classic Sonic is to thrive again it needs soul and signature design. I mean, basically exactly what Sonic 4 lacked. It reads to me as a business decision, or right in all the wrong ways like the poorly emulated chiptunes Sega has been producing lately.

Maybe I will get my wish after all, I mean Pagodawest did Major Magnet, and that's basically exactly what I'm describing.

Maybe there should be a new thread for ideas, consensus and disagreements on what a sequel might look like, seeing as how for once there might actually be someone listening...

Edit: Forgot to mention that 3D renders are often more difficult to discern between background and foreground. For a slow pace like NSMB its not so much a problem, but for fast paced action like Sonic it makes a difference.

 

I liked every playstyle from both Sonic Adventures except Tails in SA1 as it was shorter Sonic with no time to stop and explore if needed. Amy as a character was nice, except soooooo slooooowww. A bit more of acceleration would have been great; her top speed wouldn't have been so big as an issue as long as she accelerated more quickly, as the goal was to access the hammer jump. Being chased by Zero was OK, but not gameplay defining, as it could have been valid for any character. Granted, Big's fishing was out of place, but I liked it and it was played apart. A character like Knuckles in a 3D environment made much more sense as an explorer and the only reason he would explore would have been something from his island, though I think there are better things to force him move than breaking the M.E., but it was useful for the plot, so whatever. Finally, Gamma was the chance to play as a badnik, plus Tails using tech to fight inSA2 was more meaningful, so both the playstyle and the characters bringing it made sense.

In conclusion, while I think you can''t say the only reason to like Adventure is Sonic, I agree his is the best gameplay and some characters and playstyles don't belong to a Sonic title. Sonic Heroes wasn't the way to solve this, anyway, not even itf it only had the main trio.

EDIT: Answer to VectorCNC's ninja post.

I think they must evolve, but I think getting a 2x resolution before jumping to HD would be wiser, as I think Freedom Planet did, also adding previously non-existent technics for 2D games like that title did (full rotations and things like that).

I honestly think S2HD loses some charm compared to its original because of the graphic style, but it may work with all-new graphics. Starting with that 2x resolution example, the subsequent sequel (Mania 3?) could try HD, and Sega could develop a decent 2.5D engine in the meantime and let Mania team design levels for it.

Overall, I'm talking about an step-by-step evolution instead of a direct jump or more Iizuka shenaningans.

 

Would an old Windows XP laptop run Sonic Mania or is Windows 7 absolutely necessary?

 

I thought Tails was enjoyable as well. Though he was basically just flying Sonic; the racing component of his stages was so easy that it can basically be ignored. Hell I enjoyed Gamma's gameplay as well, though it was definitely out of place for a Sonic game. I'm surprised that out of all the gameplay styles they could bring back in Adventure 2, they picked Gamma's and Knuckles'. I felt they were definitely the ones that felt the most out of place in a Sonic game (barring Big's gameplay, obviously.) I think with more refinements, Tails' racing style and Amy's slower but more acrobatic style would have felt much more at home in a Sonic game than a treasure hunting game and a shooting game did. Give Tails some unique stages and routes rather than copies of Sonic's, and give Amy more intensive platforming sections (and a better camera) and perhaps find a way to adapt her style into Knuckles, for the sake of having the classic trio playable (after all, he was slower and more acrobatic than Sonic and Tails in the classics), and I think people would have enjoyed the non-Sonic/Shadow stages in SA2 a lot more.