It's none of what you insinuate. It isn't for the reason of the classic gameplay and style being handled terribly. If it was, then Sonic 4 Episode II wouldn't have gotten so much criticism and hatred. Instead, it's because Sonic Team and Dimps didn't do it well enough for them, so they complained. Really, people complain about the stages in both Sonic 4 games referencing older zones by their appearances even when the level design is overall different and uses more varied gimmicks, yet older stages returning in Sonic Mania is generally praised even when some of the level design resemble the original level design of the stages. This is especially egregious in the case of Sonic Forces. People derided the game for nostalgia-pandering when Green Hill was going to appear, even when its appearance and its design is more unique than the majority of Green Hill analogues that have appeared in the series. This is only one stage, but apparently this is unacceptable while Sonic Mania is just fine. It features three gameplay styles that are unique enough from each other to make the game feel more varied and the Avatar character is meant to be the main draw, but that is apparently not good enough for several people. There are those who actively hope that Sonic Mania does much better than Sonic Forces or that Sonic Forces fails, yet none of this behavior has been criticized. It's as if several people who call themselves fans want the series to fail.
LimitCrown, you seem to have a penchant for trying to absolve Sega and Sonic Team from any potential issue regarding the franchise, and instead peg all of the series problems on the fanbase. Why? I'm seriously confused with how you could honestly blame the series decline in popularity, quality, sales, and relevance on the only people who even bother to keep it relevant in the first place. You act as if we're all just sitting here waiting for the series to die, when it's the opposite. We all very much wants the series to succeed. What we don't want is to be force fed garbage simply because Sonic's name is slapped on it. Had that been the case, stuff like Mania wouldn't have even happened. You barely addressed the points made by either me or Lange, and instead chose to further accuse the fans for Sonic Forces' lack of spark and overall average reception. If Forces isn't being praised, if it's not getting amazing press reception, if people aren't coming out of the shadows to get a chance to play it, then maybe there's a chance that it's because what we've been given so far isn't all that great. Are you just going to ignore the part where I clearly state the exact opposite reaction happened when Sonic 4 and Colors were shown off at the same time. Are you gonna ignore the part where Lange said that the returning stages were the unanimous downside of Sonic Mania. Are you just going to continue to try and give people who have made piss poor games the benefit of the doubt simply because you're tired of the negativity surrounding the series? If so then I hate to break it to you, but that's not going to "keep the series from failing". If people want Mania to do better than Forces, it's not because they want Forces to fail, but because Mania is what they really want. If I can get a burger with all of the toppings and condiments I want, why then would I get a different burger from that same restaurant when he puts shit on it that I don't like? Why eat something I don't want, and never asked for in the first place? To support the restaurant? I want to support them, but because they make things I do like. And that's what's going on here. No one wants Forces to fail out of some contempt for Sonic Team or whatever you think it is. They want to show Sega that Mania's what they want, and they intend to show then in the only way they'll listen.
If I may jump in: I get your Forces comparison with Green Hill, LimitCrown, but I feel that this argument is flawed. The original Green Hill design was good (hear me out I'll explain in a sec), and the modern take on act 2 also looks good. The Sonic Forces Green Hill design looks like a bad romhack of Sonic 1. Or perhaps a better comparison: Sonic Forces Green Hill, mechanically speaking, looks like a badly designed Green Hill clone with gimmicks to cover up the fact that they couldn't get the momentum right. For example: one distinct part of Forces Green Hill that I remember is that footage of Sonic running across an unnecessarily long collapsing bridge with the fish robots jumping up or whatever, and there were sandfalls in the background. That just doesn't serve any purpose other than what I imagine would be spectacle, even though the scene is bland and boring due to the deliberate lack of contrast (because desert or whatever; I don't care about the story). It just looks boring. Mind you, this is coming from the guy who loves Sonic Adventure, king of "hey that looks cool let's make sonic do that thing". In the original Green Hill design, there were seldom times where you were running straight for seemingly no reason other than spectacle. It was either an opportunity to gain speed (to maintain momentum), a safe area to take a break and collect rings or something, or bust. I don't even like Sonic 1 and I still think it's better than the Forces reinterpretation. Mania to me, overall, looks like a good game, regardless of the fact that it's a Sonic game or who it's developed by. Nostalgia is not a significant factor here.
I mean this is technically correct, but the way you word it makes it sound like they did very well but it was just short of cutting the mustard or something. No, it was done terribly. Absolutely abysmally in Sonic 4. Because in Sonic 4, which is supposed to be a fully new experience, they did kinda sorta rehash knock offs of existing stages which are lackluster compared to what they're based on. Sonic Mania is meant to be a fusion of old and new, is deliberately remaking existing stages, not making weird knock off versions, and is expanding on them beautifully in a variety of ways. It's disliked in Sonic Forces because it's shoehorned in just because it worked in Generations, while not really fitting the game and is looking more bland, not to mention it looks largely automated and clunky. Also, in case you haven't been paying attention, there has been a lot of complaints about Green Hill in Mania, people don't like it rehashed yet again there either, but the level design looks magnificent and the new scenery is fresh and interesting (instead of lol sand everywhere, it explores the underground caves and gets up close to the background). Yes. Because, and it's honestly sad that it's gotten to the point I would admit this, the game would be better if it were all modern Sonic boost gameplay. Forces is supposed to be the game for 3d/modern fans. We have Mania, we have a classic 2d game, and it's being done extraordinarily well. Having classic Sonic in Forces is redundant and it looks awful in comparison. For modern fans, it takes away from their game, and for classic fans, it's far less appealing than Mania, so it ends up leaving everyone unhappy. The avatar is a wildcard, but overall it looks like a clunkier version of both play styles, and is just more focus taken away from modern Sonic, which still hasn't had a fully fleshed out game of its own, and the lack of clear direction in Forces as a result is abundant. Modern Sonic is still not fully realized, yet they're still splintering it into variations of this unfinished concept, making it all the worse.
It seems like you haven't been paying much attention to what people have been saying about Mania. The returning stages is something people don't like about the game. The number of times people in this very thread have mentioned wanting to see a "Mania 2 with all original levels" is quite high. And the difference between Mania and those other games with the returning stages is that Mania is doing a lot more with them. Act 1 of Chemical Plant Zone might just be the original level design with a few changes, but act 2 is practically a whole new level. Sonic 4 didn't do this. Sonic 4's levels didn't expand on the originals and add in new things to make them fresh and interesting. Sonic 4, Sonic Forces, do not feature expanded and re-imagined versions of old levels. They're stripped down versions of the originals with none of what made them interesting in the first place. Just because Forces added sand to Green Hill Zone doesn't make it totally new. It's still just a stripped down version of Green Hill Zone. Mania's GHZ on the other hand isn't stripped down at all, act 1 is similar to the original, but act 2 is something totally new. And then there is CPZ act 2 which adds even more than GHZ did. And having 3 gameplay styles doesn't mean anything if they're not fun to play. And to all the people criticizing Forces, they don't look fun. They don't look interesting. When I see Forces I don't get excited about playing it I just wonder what the hell they're trying to do with the game. I don't care about a custom character, it's not something I want from a Sonic game. Forces looks really bad to me. The reason people want Forces to fail or for Mania to do better than it, is because Mania is the game that they like. If it surpasses Forces in sales that could completely change the future of Sonic games. Sega would want to put more of a focus on the classic games and that's what fans of the classics want. It's not that they want the series to fail, It's that we want Classic Sonic to take the lead as the main Sonic.
I mean... Cave Story+ just got re-re-re-re-re-released on Switch at $30 on a physical cartridge. And people are buying it. And that's a no-effort release from Nicalis. I think plenty of people would drop $30 or so on a physical release of Mania with some cute little trinkets or a small poster or something (think Puyo Puyo Tetris on Switch). That could be the base edition, and then the collectors' edition could have the option of physical or digital, with all the other collectors' stuff included. Though of course, if they were gonna do that, they'd have to do it, or at least announce it, soon, so people who want a physical copy with their collectors' edition could swap over. Just sayin', Sega. It's easy money.
I do get what LimitCrown is saying, he's essentially saying it's a bit hypocritical for fans to accuse Sonic 4 and Forces of rehashing when Mania uses the exact same levels (eg Green Hill), not even reimagined designs (Sonic 4 invented Splash Hill), or vasty different takes (Forcss' sandy Green Hill) and then uses essentially the exact same level design for Act 1. It's not a stupid statement, it does seem outlandishly hypocritical. A lot of people were very unhappy with returning stages in Mania. Remember the sourness in the fandom when Iizuka said there would be more classic stages than new levels? The reason the fandom hasn't completely kicked off about it is twofold; firstly, the new stages in Mania are far more imaginative and fresh than any new levels put out by Sonuc Team or Dimps in recent memory. Secondly, because the game looks so good, we are giving the devs a lot more good faith. It's not like Sonic 4, which looked dodgy from the get go, and then the rehashing caused even worse faith in the project.
I've complained about Chemical Plant Act 1, Flying Battery Act 1, and Green hill all within this thread. Having said that, even I must admit that the more I see of the expansions on these recycled acts, the more I come to appreciate them. CPZ1 greatly expands the underwater segment to fit in with both the original act 1 and act 2 and probably has much more to offer than it initially appeared. GHZ1 is equally impressive. The act 2s of both are nothing short of spectacular enhancements/new designs. I expect no less from Flying battery now even though I've not yet seen the evidence to really prove it. Do I want Mania 2 with all new zones? Do I want at least 6 new zones in Mania 1? Yes, and yes. But the reality is that Tax/Stealth are talented and capable individuals who have a fandom/engineering career that outpaces even the original Sonic Team's time with the franchise now. Stealth has been working on reverse engineering these games for literally 20 years as a hobbyist, and I've been following his work loosely for about that long now since the VERY early SFGHQ days back in 98 or so. Sega literally could not've contracted 'anyone' on this planet more capable than them in my mind, as they are arguably more passionate about getting classic Sonic right than some of the core team members (who 'also' support them with great enthusiasm, btw). This is essentially a miracle project that will either make or break this rather wounded franchise if it succeeds or fails, and every reveal seems to give it a better shot at success. I think Forces will actually turn out better than some people here are giving it credit for, but Mania really is the star of the show for a large chunk of the paying gaming crowd and it has a real shot at being more successful. I want that to happen so Sonic Team finally remembers what made it famous back in the day.
If a substantial amount of people disliked the amount of returning stages, then I would have seen loud complaints about it throughout the several forums. So far, this isn't the case; the praise of the stages outweighs the criticisms and people here aren't complaining about this nearly as much as they had done with the aforementioned games. It never mattered much in the first place outside of being an example of cherry-picking about what Sonic Team or Dimps tries to do. Also, you use examples of the Act 2 versions of some of the returning stages in Sonic Mania to show that they allegedly do more, but the Avatar character's Green Hill is also much different level design-wise and it shows how areas of the landscape are worsening because of Eggman's machines. Sonic Forces's Green Hill has a much different concept and aesthetic than Sonic Mania's does. Who says that the three gameplay styles aren't fun to play? Your view toward the series is not indubitably representative of anybody else. A major issue that I see in regard to this fanbase is the large amount of nostalgia blindness that make people disregard the newer games just because they're not what they prefer. Of the three major gameplay styles that have appeared in the series, I actually prefer the Adventure style of gameplay. I've wanted a game with different characters being playable with unique gameplay and I've also wanted a Chao Garden system to appear in another game. However, I'm not disregarding the newer games and calling them bad just because they aren't what I would want the most. An Adventure-style game would be wasted anyways, considering how people complain when a character's gameplay mechanics differs from Sonic's gameplay even if it's to utilize the different characters' abilities better. It's nitpicking to complain about that bridge section. It lasts only for a few seconds and level sections that were designed solely for the spectacle have been in Sonic games as early as Sonic 3 & Knuckles. As an example: places in which you don't do much other than let Sonic be propelled by springs while he is still rolling followed by that section ending and transitioning to a platforming section or the end of the level. In any case, I personally consider Sonic Forces's Green Hill to be better level-design-wise than Sonic Generations's Green Hill and in the latter, there have been quite a few areas that amounted to holding right. I've noticed how the fanbase tends to judge the video games that Sonic Team or whoever else develops and there are issues with the fanbase that people like to ignore or justify. The high amount of pessimism that constantly surrounds Sonic Team's games simply because they're not like another Sonic Adventure is just one of the many issues that together hamper the developers' efforts to try to please their fans. The fanbase continuously nitpicks over every single little thing that one of their games does and constantly jumps to conclusions. I've also noticed how people use the reception of games that weren't even developed by Sonic Team (Sonic Boom: Rise of Lyric) as a prediction for Sonic Forces. Hardly anybody in the fanbase, as far as I can tell, ever takes responsibility for their own jumps to conclusions, faulty judgements, and other errors; it's always Sonic Team's fault or SEGA's fault. Also, this is something that I've begun to notice recently, but of the three divisions of the fanbase, you will more likely see claims of a lack of "knowledge" or "understanding" of a preference of a gameplay style being directed more towards Modern Sonic fans. I consider things like that to be detestable.
Every time I read an interview from Iizuka about Mania, I get more and more worried that this is going to end up being a one-time deal. The way he is phrasing things, like how he was talking about how delayed the development is and how backhanded his comments seem about the amount of zones really feels like passive-aggressiveness against the project. To be fair, he definitely should should feel threatened about how much effort and excellence Mania is exhibiting, but since he has the final say about the projects that move forward and those that don't, I really hope I'm misinterpreting the vibes that are out there from these interviews. I want to see more Classic Sonic, specifically done by the Mania team because Sonic Team has proven themselves inadequate at doing it themselves.
Oh look, people are arguing about Forces in the Mania thread. Didn't see that one coming. For what it's worth, I think it's because this decade has featured Splash Hill, Green Hill, Windy Hill, Green Hill and Green Hill that it's so grating. Generations was a celebration of old levels. Mania was announced as a "old and new" hybrid and all the attention was on Studiopolis. It was only with the Act 2 reveals that people were genuinely excited to revisit old zones. Forces was believed to be entirely original, and then shitty Green Hill with pointless sand shows up? Of course people were going to be upset. Personally, I'm not too happy with the remixed Act 1s in Mania. I was hoping we wouldn't be seeing too much of old layouts and graphics, and Flying Battery smashed that into the ground. The Act 2s are much more in-line with what I want to see, and I'm hardly the only one to feel this way. As an aside, I think I'll get that vinyl, even without something to play it on. It's way past cool.
There's been interviews where Iizuka takes credit for the concept of Mania. He also talks about how hands on he is in reviewing the Mania Team's level designs both before production and then again after they make revisions based on his suggestions. That's more hands on then he is with Dimps (as in past interview he has said that his involvement on the Dimps games stops at the planning phase). If he really felt threatened he probably could have forced the Mania team to release on schedule (just like Sega did with Boom and 06) which would have resulted in a less polished game. Given his involvement, Iizuka probably considers Maina to be an Iizuka™ game almost as much as Forces.
Yeah, they really should have a physical copy of a game. Digital has its advantages, but I don't like the idea of paying money for a game and not owning it. There are actually cases where people spent hundreds into their PSN and Steam accounts, were permanently locked out, and support didn't care/ weren't able to help. At least with physical I actually own the game, and don't need to verify identification just to download it on another console (eg. PS4 to PS4 Pro). If they're going to go digital I really wish they'd at least: 1.) Offer a limited physical release. 2.) Eventually bring it DRM free to something like GOG, kind of like how Fallout 3 and New Vegas just finally made it there. Now that they got most of the sales from Steam or PS360, they don't really worry about piracy. It's not the end of the world, I'd still buy the game, but I just don't like some of the stipulations buying digitally sometimes comes attached to. I'd be willing to pay $10 - $20 more just for a physical copy. ...Also, I just like having physical box art
While we wait for the new Sonic Mania artwork to be officially released, I decided to try and restore the E3 Poster and the Vinyl Soundtrack artwork so that we can view them in better quality in the meantime. I also added them to the Wiki until we get the official versions in high quality.
It's Generations' Green Hill but with the water replaced with sand. Your definition of "unique" is... unique.
The reason people haven't been criticizing the returning levels so much is because Mania has done pretty much everything else right. The game is the classic game everyone's been wanting for all these years. And after seeing the second acts, it's honestly not so bad. CPZ act 2 looks awesome and I'm personally looking forward to playing that. If GHZ was the only problem with Forces then people probably wouldn't care that much, but the issues people have with it extend beyond GHZ coming back again. And that's great if you think the avatar character looks fun, but it doesn't to me or the other people who criticize Forces. Also the custom character definitely isn't adding anywhere near as much to GHZ as the act 2 in mania is, a different move set and level design doesn't compare to the new gimmick, and backgrounds that Mania's act 2 provides. I will say one thing I thought was pretty cool about forces though, I thought it was neat how the GHZ boss was the Eggdragoon. It was something I wanted to see in Generations, fighting modern bosses as classic Sonic, or classic Bosses as modern. So to see that finally become a thing is neat to me, even though I think the execution isn't as good as I'd have hoped. And my views are my own. That's why I specified it didn't look fun to me specifically. I'm one of the people who isn't interested in forces and so I was explaining my viewpoint. I'm not the type of person to say that forces is objectively bad, that's just silly to me, all I can say is I think it looks bad and it's not a game I want to play. If you want to play it, then go ahead I'm not stopping you and neither is anyone else who isn't interested in Forces. As far as nostalgia blindness goes, that's not the case here. At least not for me. I actually played the more modern sonic games before I ever played the classics. The reason the classics are my favorites are because they're genuinely good games. They're extremely fun to play. I personally don't even dislike the boost gameplay necessarily. Generations was fun and I thought it was going in the right direction, I want to see them do more with it since I personally think there is a lot of room for improvement on it. Forces almost looks like a regression though, it's not learning from past mistakes. Classic Sonic wasn't great in generations and the level design has gotten worse since then, and no improvements have been made. Classic Sonic should play like classic Sonic, but in Generations he felt extremely off and Forces looks to be continuing that trend. With all the people working on Forces you'd think they could do better, why can't they get Classic Sonic's physics right? Why doesn't the level design look as interesting as the original games? Maybe Forces will release and I'll be proven wrong, maybe they just haven't shown all the good stuff yet, but from what I have seen so far, Forces is not a game that interests me. I want to see more classic games, and so the best way for me to do that is to purchase Mania and not spend any money on Forces.
Sonic Mania is up front about its re-used levels. Chemical Plant Zone is Chemical Plant Zone. Sonic 4 would have a level called Mad Gear Zone that was 99% Metropolis Zone. It came across as very Original Level Do Not Steal. It also helps that Sonic Mania was revealed with Studiopolis Zone, which looks gorgeous and is an entirely new concept for the series. Sonic 4 Episode I had nothing like that, and Episode II only had White Park. There's also the general understanding that Mania is being made by a small development team and that touching up old Mega Drive level graphics allows them to have more levels in the game than if each level had to be drawn from scratch. Sonic 4 didn't repurpose any old sprites and it only had a paltry number of Zones each episode. There was no practical reason for doing things the way they did. Finally, there's the philosophy behind the titles. Sonic Mania suggests a wild mix of different elements and fan pleasing favourites, which it is. Sonic 4 suggests the next step on from Sonic 3&K. With the exception of Emerald Hill Zone, Sonic 2 and 3&K didn't recycle previously used levels. Sonic 4 should have had the same level of freshness and gone beyond what 3&K accomplished. Instead it recycled old levels and enemies and Special Stages, had smaller levels, fewer levels, fewer characters, fewer power ups etc. But most of all it was janky and crap in its own right.
I don't get how Sega can justify physical versions of games like Degenki Bunko fighter and Hatsune Miku but not a Sonic game which has the potential to be the most popular and well received Sonic game in 20 odd years and would probably get much more exposure on shop store shelves and sell even more, but what do I know.. So many small indie games get physical releases now, hell Cave Story just came out on the Switch and Capcom got away with a port of Street Fighter II HD remix from yonks ago and probably profited on that tenfold. It's just money sitting on the table at this point.
As I already said at least half a dozen of times, I still wish there could be a physical release, too. Not everyone wants to set Steam up, some people just want to walk to a store and purchase a box with no strings attached. This isn't even personal, for example you can think about a parent who wants to buy a present for their son, can you honestly claim that older people know (or even care about) how Steam works? Sega is losing a HUGE share of profit by not making a physical release. And don't start with the "digital releases help fight piracy" bullcrap because it's actually the other way around, even I will be tempted to download a pirated version of it and then paypal the full price to Stealth and Taxman, out of respect for their work. But I still have a slight hope that such extreme measures won't be necessary, I really, really hope that Sega will surprise us all when we least expect it.
