I think the stylistic leaps made in each Kirby game keeps things fresher. Green Greens has never shown up looking quite the same twice (except for the Game Boy throwback level in Adventure), but Green Hill is usually pretty thoroughly Green Hill, even when it's being called Splash, Windy, or Sandy Hill. Also yeah, Kirby's never disappointed yet. That certainly helps.
That makes sense. Kirby's green levels feel like they evolve and are simply using the same trope. Sonic did this for a while, from Green Hill to Emerald Hill to Palmtree Panic and then kinda to Angel Island or Mushroom Hill, but then they just said "hey 2D, that means GHZ right?" (Yes there's exceptions to this, Sonic Advance 2 and the Rush series, but beyond that I'm drawing blanks). The 3D games seem to go more for a beach trope most of the time though.
Which is probably part of the reason why City Escape is so revered. It is such an unexpected start to a Sonic game, having nothing to do with greenery or beaches, but running through San Francisco as fast as you can with military robots shooting at you. It's one of the best starts to a Sonic game ever IMO.
It's also loved for nostalgia, I don't dislike City Escape as an opener, but to me it's literally just a hallway for the most part, and it's why I appreciate Sonic Generations for opening it up a bit.
I haven't been feeling well in a while, but I'm back. Anyways... Shadow explicitly stated at the first cutscene that he didn't care about the humans. He does, however, canonically assist the heroes. What you don't realize about Black Doom trying to convince Shadow that humans are bad is that it's largely a facade. He never explicitly tells Shadow what his real plan is or actually care about what the humans did. It's all just to get him to unquestionably follow his orders. Thinking about it, outside the beginning of Central City, The Doom, and the True Ending, Black Doom doesn't say much about humanity being evil. I pointed out The Doom because it's an instance of Black Doom trying to influence Shadow's course of actions within that memory. Also, the GUN Commander telling Shadow about his origins and directly blaming him for the people on the ARK dying leads to what I consider to be Shadow showing genuine sadness. You haven't actually stated what "edgy" is supposed to mean and exaggerated the parts of the story. You've failed to explain how Shadow taking part in the destruction of Central City is supposedly worse. You're speaking of a video game with a mission-based structure. More importantly, you're speaking of a level that gives you the choice to help Knuckles by cleaning up many of the smaller bombs in the stage, not messing with the large ones. You are not forced to do the Dark Mission so there isn't any reason to speak as if you are, and it's unlikely that most video gamers would feel a tinge of remorse from completing the Dark Mission. Besides, even if Shadow was not involved in any way, it's likely that much of Central City would be left in ruins. Yeah. Likely because of choosing to not animate the people that might have been there. You can't actually see people in the buildings, even though it's reasonable for them to be there for work or anything. Believing that the townsfolk were totally unharmed without any casualties or fatalities requires more suspension of disbelief than the moon being able to seem fine after having a big chunk of it blown to pieces. When more levels instead of a sandbox are created, only then it can be adequately judged. As much as I am intrigued by the game, a difficult thing that I expect them to not tackle easily is giving people an incentive to actually explore the levels. When the goal of the levels in Sonic games is usually "reach the end", the most apparent or fastest paths will typically be taken. I wouldn't imagine this being accepted by the fans if Sonic Team were making this. I know that Sonic Heroes and Shadow the Hedgehog, especiallly the latter, were panned for daring to try something different, even if the general style of gameplay wasn't deviated from. Those games were compared a lot to the Adventure games in the past. Also, I know that Chaotix and Sonic 3D Blast were ones that tried something new and didn't receive particularly good reception overall. When people refer to the "Classics", it's only the four games from the Genesis / Sega CD. Very few people mention the Master System and Game Gear games or care to remember them. That isn't true. You need some of those upgrades in order to complete some of the Hard Mode stages. As a few examples, White Jungle can't be completed without Shadow's Flame Ring because there are metal boxes in the way, both the third and fifth missions of Death Chamber can't be completed without the Air Necklace and Mystic Melody, and Knuckles and Rouge's stages typically use the Treasure Scope / Sunglasses. Even with the other characters' abilities, being able to be propelled farther from springs isn't exactly something that they can accomplish. Scaling walls is useful, but it's still slower in comparison when the opportunity exists. Specifically in Advance 3, the extended hitbox doesn't apply only to her feet and if that hitbox is used, Amy turns into a ball after hitting the enemy. The extended hitbox for the aerial hammer swing doesn't apply when she's partnered with Tails; it's also slower, but it allows Amy to gain a bit more height from a jump. I'm looking at my previous response and I've included my quote when I considered it to not disrupt from your response. You also continue to do what I pointed out anyways. Perhaps, rather than deflecting, own up to it. Oh really? Let's use a few examples. Show me how Sylvania Castle as a level copies directly from Aquatic Ruin. Show me how the gimmicks from Casino Street and Lost Labyrinth's Act 2 and 3 copies from the levels that they were designed to explicitly call back to graphics-wise. It's apparent that the only reason that people who claim Sonic 4 to just copy level from older games do so is that only because the aesthetics are similar in any respect, regardless of whether the levels themselves are structurally similar. You're complaining about enemies being reused? You haven't been paying attention; several of the badniks from the older games and their variants have been used constantly from the classics to the modern games. Orbinauts have appeared a surprising number of times in the games in which regular badniks have appeared; they along with others are staples. I brought up the Mario and Kirby series previously; both of them have staple enemies, which their fanbases don't whine about. I'll address your Green Hill rant along with some other comments that caught my eye later, since I had brought up the two previous series; both are guilty of the same, no matter how people try to portray it different. Considering that the Green Hill archetype has been used constantly in order to identify the basic grassy levels, people are several years too late to complain and it's evident that the later levels with the identifier of checkerboards and grass don't play the same as Green Hill Zone. Moving on, enough. The level that we've seen bears little resemblance to Rooftop Run beyond them both being towns and containing buildings, which in Sonic Forces's level have more vibrant colors. You have no justification to "complain about complainers" and you know very well that it isn't a matter of "giving Sonic a chance". The judgments of the loud portion of the fanbase and you of the levels in Sonic Forces only being linear and bland are completely unfounded and evidently shows how people can't consider things before they make wayward judgments. I'm not fazed by or particularly sympathetic to those who blatantly blame this on Sonic Team or other people when it suits them as a way to deflect criticism. I couldn't care less about whether you or anybody else has a right to complain when it isn't justified because the "right" to do so is irrelevant. It's disappointing that this behavior is outright encouraged. If you want people to stop "complaining about complainers", then my suggestion would be to step back and wait instead of jumping to conclusions about things that you don't actually know much about and whining about how the fans were "betrayed".
You're correct, the Generations version is better. You're able to cover more ground and take multiple paths while the SA2 version is more or less a straight line. But I do like the SA2 version a lot because of its simplicity and uniqueness as an opening stage. For someone who hadn't played a Sonic game since 3D Blast before picking up the Gamecube port of SA2, City Escape was just a blast that got me acquainted to Sonic in true 3D quickly. It's too bad the next stage was such a momentum-killer (but that goes for all of Knuckles' stages), lol.
Jesus Christ. You are being deliberately obtuse. Look at Sonic 1, 2, 3 and S&K. Sonic 2's Emerald Hill Zone re-hashed Green Hill Zone and its robots. The rest of the levels and enemies and bosses were brand new. In Sonic 3 & Knuckles, every level and enemy was brand new. Sonic CD wasn't part of the core numbered series, but let's look at that too. It re-used a lot of level themes from Sonic 1, but with a very different art direction and past/future variations for each one. There was no mistaking Stardust Speedway for Star Light Zone. And once again, all of the enemies were brand new. The Sonic sequels emphasised new ideas and new player experiences whilst maintaining the way Sonic moved and handled as the constant that unified the series. Contrast this to Sonic 4, which almost exclusively recycled old ideas and visuals but broke the way Sonic moved and handled, so it ended up being not just a creatively bereft imitation but an incompetent one too.
Actually, no. Winter Zone was reworked into Ice Cap (so, ok this one can be classified as brand new as it was Scrapped in Sonic 2) Metropolis into Flying Battery (we have concept art proving that) Hidden Palace (even the background! was reworked into Lava Reef) Hidrocity uses some tiles and gimmicks from Labyrinth Zone Wood Zone was reworked into both Mushroom Hill and Angel Island (so, ok these can also be classified as brand new as it was Scrapped in Sonic 2)
I'm a bit interested, could you elaborate a bit on that? Do you have the concept art or the rough sketches or whatever that shows the links between the Sonic 2 and Sonic 3 stages? I'm a bit curious about the connection mainly between Wood Zone and Mushroom Hill/Angel Island, and while I can already recall the similarities on the others, I'd love to see what details I'm not remembering.
You're being self-contradictory by trying to use Sonic CD. Considering how people try to argue Sonic 4's levels to be "unoriginal" and "copies" solely by their aesthetics, it doesn't make sense to even use the game as a counterargument. As you've said here, the game reuses level themes from the zones in Sonic 1. Not only that, it uses some of the level gimmicks that have appeared in those zones and some of the badniks in that game are functionally similar to ones in both Sonic 1 and Sonic 2, if not clear look-alikes. Regardless of what their past and future variations look like, the present versions are the ones that you first see and the concepts that the levels are centered around are still apparent. Also, regarding Sonic 4's bosses, the ones in Episode 1 change in behavior after taking enough hits and consequently function very differently from the ones that they call back to. The bosses in Lost Labyrinth and Mad Gear don't act anything like their counterparts when they reach that phase. The bosses in Episode 2 are completely different from the beginning with the exception of the callback to the Metal Sonic Race in the last zone. Also, how Sonic controls is irrelevant to those arguments that I criticize. Master Emerald gave examples of some of Sonic 3's levels not being particularly original. Let's use Hydrocity Zone. If the perspective that people use for Sonic 4's levels was used for this one, then the argument of Hydrocity being a "ripoff" of Labyrinth Zone would be along those lines. There is a blatant disparity between how the games are seen. Now, there is one other comment that I want to point out: With how people shamelessly try to call Oil Desert a ripoff of Oil Ocean (they don't even use similar themes), say that Sylvania Castle is just a copy of Aquatic Ruin despite being very structurally different, and insinuate that Death Egg mk. II is not original level design-wise, it doesn't make sense for those same people to call White Park original. If the same type of flawed comparing was used, then those people would argue that White Park is just a "copy" of Ice Cap that uses elements of Stardust Speedway (Good Future). Think about it: Act 1 and Act 3 of White Park are inspired by the surface and cavernous portions of Ice Cap Act 2, White Park Act 2 and the Boss area are like Stardust Speedway's Good Future, and the boss is Metal Sonic. However, just as I said for the other zones, White Park is structurally different from either of those two zones and it isn't a copy as those people would say. The fact that White Park is not given the same treatment evidences that the levels sharing themes with older zones is not even as much of a issue as they claim it to be and it's selective nitpicking.
Here's a pic from a TV ad showing Winter zone (christmas theme level) concept used in Sonic 3 Here's some recolored Metropolis being used as FBz concept art LINK And in angel island...:
Still though, they're only rehash to us because we know too much. To most people (and to us back in the day), Ice Cap, Hidden Palace, and most of Sonic 3 & Knuckles' levels were unique concepts. And I'm sure it's been pointed out before but a lot of that stuff looks like it was used for Sonic Advance 1 and 2 (Getting a lot of Advance 1's winter zone vibes from the snow level and especially a lot of SA1 Angel Island and SA2 Sky Canyon vibes)
FFS are people still trying to hamfist that tropes and copies are the same thing. Have I got to hammer the point again that this new zone isn't a case that it reminds us of GHZ, it's that it LOOKS EXACTLY LIKE GHZ. We're also in a time where the charm of reusing levels has worn thin to the point of boring and agravating. I can't think of a better way to run down the franchise ATM. Past 2017 I never want to see a reused zone for at least a good 10 years in a Sonic game, if ever.
This clearly isn't the same thing. Nobody playing Sonic 3 in 1994 thought "this stage reminds me of Winter Zone". Flying Battery Zone re-used one gimmick from Metropolis Zone, but I think it's fair to say that the end result was largely distinct from it. I think it's an objective truth that Flying Battery Zone has a hell of a lot more to distinguish itself from Metropolis Zone than Sonic 4's Mad Gear Zone does. I don't think you're following what I'm saying. The core numbered Mega Drive games (Sonic 1, 2, 3 & Knuckles) had unique levels and enemies in each installment. The only exception was Sonic 2's Emerald Hill Zone. Sonic & Knuckles re-used the Death Egg Zone name, but did something entirely new with it. Sonic CD, the wacky cousin of the main series, re-used most of its level themes from Sonic 1. This is one of the game's weaknesses. BUT, they at least gave those re-used level themes a complete visual overhaul and took advantage of the time travel feature to distinguish them even further. Again, Stardust Speedway is so far removed from Star Light Zone that it stands up as a unique and memorable level in the Sonic series. Sonic 4: Episode I reused level ideas and visuals almost verbatim. All of its enemies were re-used. The few new gimmicks like "light the torches" weren't enough. Sonic 4: Episode II was a bit better, White Park Zone in particular, but it was too little too late. I don't think I'm saying anything controversial here. I feel like next you'll write a three page essay on how avant-garde Sonic Pocket Adventure was.
I'm seeing new Sonic Forces screenshots accompanied by a loose translated excerpt from Iizuka in an issue of Famitsu that came out yesterday? I'm surprised no one has mentioned this here as of yet? Nothing noticeably striking from the screenshots, aside from one having Sonic grinding on a rail, presumably from the same level shown in the demo. Iizuka is basically taking a Sonic Adventure approach as far as story goes, from what I gathered. He emphasized the art direction being more realistic, but not so much as to lose cartoon-elements that Sonic titles usually have (he wants that to be a takeaway from Lost World???). So it's finding a balance between Sonic 06 and Sonic Lost World. It in theory should have a Sonic Unleashed aesthetic to it, but the sense of peril and serious tone of the story is implied as a tipping point for the visuals. Meaning it will potentially start off a bit cartoony in themes and tropes, but as you progress, Eggman's influence becomes more apparent in scale: based on size of enemies, more militarized presence, and level topography. He also implied that with Eggman's domination, Sonic's role is "active" in the story, albeit a small contributing scale in the grand scheme of things occurring collectively. He wants the story AND the gameplay to go hand in hand. Based on that intent, with the emphasis on being the implied last hope to stop Eggman as apart of a "resistance", it very well may be that each level completed, contributes in decreasing Eggmans influence to the point where you're progressing closer to the end of the game, and the difficulty and intensity will be a dwarfing contrast from when you start from the 1st level. Sonic (and friends) vs Eggman empire (in its entirety). Diminishing Eggman's influence low enough to get to the heart of his operations to confront him directly? Interesting take on things. It's easy to speculate that, this game may have missions where you'll have to perform objectives: like eradicating Eggman's occupation of a location that may be integral for a counter attack. May be certain levels will even be time sensitive. There's room to speculate more, but Iizuka is definitely going for a "SatAM" vibe with this game. Of course he also states he's not trying to appeal to a certain demographic with this game, but is instead applying a "world view" of what Sonic is, and wishes to incorporate a more compelling story to provide a sense of urgency and instill a sense of player immersion in the events that occur. The story will also explain why Classic Sonic is there, in spite of the fact that the Generations formula worked, and it is desired for fans that prefer traditional Sonic gameplay, to want to be included in this adventure. Of course, his excerpt was loosely translated to where I understood the logic behind his sentiments, hence the use of the word "implied", in spite of context and the accuracy of context. It is enough info to speculate. And with that said, my impression does change a little. I'm thinking that we may potentially be approaching this Sonic game the wrong way. The story and theme of pushing back Eggman, may in fact make for more gameplay depth, while we get our typical Classic/Modern gameplay styles on the surface. I'm saying we may be getting a layer of gameplay based on how well this story is being executed. Apologies for wordiness...I hope someone pulls that info into this thread soon as I'd like to see other views.
If you're referring to Sonic 4's White Park, then the comparison with the snow levels from the Advance series is apt as well. When you look at Ice Cap, the snow levels from those games, and White Park, then you can notice the trend of them being partially water levels. When I had made the comparison to Ice Cap, I had forgotten to mention how sections of the level had him riding on a snowboard, a clear callback to that zone and a common thing that the 3D snow levels had. However, as I said previously, the structure of those levels are clearly different and they have their own things to differentiate themselves from the others. This isn't the only example of common archetypes being used for other stages in the Sonic series. No, it doesn't. As it was pointed out earlier, that stage in Sonic Forces looks like it was desertified. Also, no. This was not a concept that was done before. Neo Green Hill Zone is a beach, not a desert. In any case, since Green Hill-like identifiers have been used for other stages several times, there is little reason for people to complain about the game just because of one single level, of which sparse footage was shown, complain about seeing Green Hill Zone again when the actual stage was previously used a grand total of three times in the main Sonic games, and decide to complain now of all times about the identifiers as if it is a new thing. That's the thing about Sonic CD. The changes in the levels' appearance are reliant on the time travel mechanic's existence. The time travel mechanic doesn't only change the general appearance of the levels; the structure of the levels change as well. More importantly, though, the level's already unorthodox design compared to any of the other Sonic games would have done enough to show that those levels were different from their counterparts and they are treated as such even if the level tropes and mechanics that they're based upon are still blatantly similar. Really, the thing that matters the most to the levels is their structure. Acts 2 and 3 of Sonic 4 Episode I's later levels definitely provided something new to distinguish themselves. The "light the torches" gimmick as you call it provided a distinguishing feature unlike anything from the zone that it called back to and it changed how the level was approached. The structure of those levels were also evidently different. In Episode II, the vast majority of the stages were unique overall. Even if you look at Sky Fortress, the stage's structure is very different and I personally consider it to be more interesting than the two zones that its appearance resembles. Levels sharing themes from older stages isn't a new concept and it was done in previous Sonic games.
Splash hill uses a checkered pattern similar to Green Hill, loops from Emerald Hill (the ones in green hill start with flat terrain and end with flat terrain), corkscrews also from Emerald Hill, vines from Angel Island, breakable rocks from Angel Island, pulleys from the modern games, and inside walls sections from Emerald hill. So what? Sonic 4 is disliked for what it could have been not for what it is. I this will be the case with Forces so Sonic Team can be dismembered and handled to a different team.
The people claiming that Sega are not overusing the same tropes are really just interested in venting their Sonic knowledge. It's plain as fucking day that they are overusing them, and you don't need to be a walking Sonic Wiki to accept or refute this, it's obvious. Like really super obvious... It's a matter of opinion whether this is good or not, but to deny it's real or somehow the fault of the audience and not Sega (or Sega's intention) is dumb. It takes a serious lack of imagination to maintain Sega is not overusing the same tropes. It's one of my chief complaints actually.
So you still don't get it huh? No one cares that it looks like Green Hill darling. But what they've shown us on not just an aesthetic, but technical level screams rehash and boredom. Half of what we just saw was stuff they had in Generations and Lost World. Why do you think Mania's Green Hill has gotten a reasonably warm and comfortable reception? Because they're doing something with it. Creative and exciting ideas to make it seem brand new, not just cosmetic overlays to satiate our "fantasies". No one complains about Emerald Hill or Palmtree Panic or any of the other Green Hill retreads because most of them bring sufficiently new content to the table that will help distinguish it as something unique. Not just visually, but technically. Why should I be okay with seeing, "slightly different Green Hill", when half of what they have shown us is the same stuff we've had before. No one here is saying the game will instantly suck based on the footage...well at least not intentionally. What they're saying is that Sega is doing a poor job of getting us excited because they've CHOSEN to show us the most mundane parts of the game. Go back and watch Unleashed, Generations, even Lost World, and you'll see that they really try to pull out all the stops and show off some insane, crazy, and exciting stuff! Hell even Boom managed to show off some impressive things in it's trailer. But now that they want to play all hush-hush, they've opted to show an already distraught fanbase the most uninspired parts of their disappointing game. The fact that Classic Sonic is yet again being forcibly associated with elements from the past is just the icing on the cake.
How is this level not a copy? It's got GHZ's rock patterns, GHZ's flowers, GHZ's bushes, GHZ's trees, GHZ's loops (with grass on top, which Generations also did), GHZ's bridges, and Generations' rendition of GHZ's totem poles. These aren't just single "identifiers" being reused, these are all of GHZ's "identifiers" being used. Sure, it's got sand in the background instead of water, and there are pyramids in the far background. It might not look exactly like GHZ in that regard, but this isn't even remotely the same as reusing general themes between games. This isn't reminiscent of Green Hill Zone. Reminiscent would be like Emerald Hill or Palmtree, giving off a "hey, this is familiar but kind of fresh" vibe. As sparse as the classic Forces footage is, the only vibe the stage gives off is "hey, it's green hill but with sand". Also, I'm not sure where you're getting that people are only now starting to complain about Green Hill reappearing. Just off the top of my head... Sonic 4? When it was properly revealed and we saw Splash Hill, I remember a lot of the same sentiment going around - that people were tired of seeing GHZ rehashed to death. 4 was being advertised as the sequel we'd waited nearly 20 years for - not a homage to the classics, but a sequel. It utterly failed on that front, both by rehashing content and not playing anything like the classics. Generations? I can't (and won't) speak for anyone else, but I can forgive Generations for it, because it was the big 20th anniversary game, and it was at its heart a celebration - it was reusing levels, that was the entire point. It was a homage to the franchise's history. Mania? I'd argue that Mania is the anniversary game this time around. It's returning to the franchise's very roots, it's revisiting old stages and adding new ones, and it's marketing itself as such. Again, I can't speak for anyone else, but while I would've liked seeing a different zone represent Sonic 1 (no love for Star Light? ), I can understand why GHZ would be the go-to choice. Forces? Forces isn't putting itself forward as being a celebration game. Iizuka explicitly said it wouldn't be a Generations 2, as much as the gameplay we've seen looks like it, and while modern Sonic's Civil War Zone has some resemblance to Rooftop Run (in the general architecture style, e.g. brick roads and fences), it's not "Rooftop Run but with EXPLOSIONS!" (so far, at least). Hell, even the terrain around the city is reminiscent of Green Hill without being a carbon copy of it - it's not using the same old checkered ground pattern, and there are distinct cubic trees. They could've shown off a stage for classic Sonic based on that aesthetic - it's similar to Green Hill, but it's still different. And then there's all of what Sean posted while I was writing this. What he said factors into this too, yes. :v: EDIT: what the hell is going on with my text formatting
