Enough is enough about the fan games folks. Please. Everyone should be happy that we're getting Sonic Mania and stop comparing it as a fan game. And let me tell you all something, Taxman and Stealth remake of S1,2 & CD were build up from the ground with a better engine that they been making for the past 16 years. And Lange made a good point.
Very much looking forwards so Sonic Mainia! I see a lot of nice ideas , even if (maybe, just maybe) some of the ideas appear to be similar to ideas that other fans have dreamed of doing for years. I say Great minds think alike ! Myself ?, I've always dreamed of making an underworld area for greenhill zone loaded with lots of hidden Treasure rooms that are housing some power ups and little underwater sections that sonic can run threw, but Yeah I'm glad that someone fleshed out a similar idea. Because I may never have had a chance to do it myself . How many of us have had an underground ghz section idea at some point ?! If so, than it shows that some of us have a very similar mindset. I think that it takes a fan to make a really good game vs someone who is just trying to make a quick buck. So yeah no ones ripping anyone off here ! We all just have the same Sonic fan dreams is all ! I'm sure Taxman and co are still very huge sonic fans just like the rest of us . So we are all in good hands here .
If anything I think Mania will give fangames more attention. Because of it people are looking into what Taxman and Stealth have made and will notice that they made Sonic fangames. After which they might look at Sonic fangames made by other people as well, or they will be brought up in discussions because of people discussing their fangame origins. Even the "it looks like a fangame" comment some people make is bringing up other fangames like After The Sequel in forum discussions. By the way, really "Mania looks like a fangame" is a pretty big compliment to fangames.
On a different tack: I have absolutely no doubt there'll be a "Sonic & Tails" mode, considering it was included in the Sonic 1/2 mobile ports. But since this is getting release on console and computer, MY wish is for some classic co-op action. Pretty please?
I can see why folks might think Mania a fangame, but by this logic you could say that any game with fans on the development staff could be a fangame. I'm sure that at least some of the Dimps staff who worked on Sonic 4 were fans of the series, so does that make Sonic 4 a fangame? The thing with Mania is, even though this crew has made Sonic fan projects in the past, this is their job right now. It's not just a "fangame with a budget," it's a full blown game that, because it has a budget, makes it so this team has all the time they need to put their energy and creativity towards what happens to be a passion project, rather than cranking stuff out in their spare time. I would imagine that, to some degree, SEGA or Sonic Team (namely Iizuka) themselves are overseeing the project and putting forth some form of quality control (not that these folks really need it with all of their heads being put together on this one, but it's only natural that the ones footin' the bill here want a phenomenal end result). I guess what I'm trying to say, in way more words than is probably necessary, is that while this is technically a game by fans for fans, calling it a fangame, or glorified fan project, or any other variation of, sort of makes it out to be less professional of a title than it really is. Sort of like taking some of the wind out of its sails, I guess. All that aside, I can't wait to see more. There was mention somewhere on the webz of the game going on a tour, perhaps like Generations did in the Fall of 2011, and I'm really hoping it at least makes it as close to me as Atlanta. I'd drive two to three hours for a chance to see it up close and personal in a heartbeat. I love what I've seen of revamped Green Hill and the new Studiopolis, the animations are beautiful, the music is majestic and nostalgic, the title screen is absolutely gorgeous, and every time I see another snippet of gameplay, it makes me want it even more. I came out of that Birthday livestream pleased as punch, weird Sanrio deal, #stuffednachos, and all. I wanted a new 3D/Unleashed/Generations-style game, and got that and more bags of chips than my body has room for.
I'll be honest, I'm not sure what kind of point you're trying to make here and it's coming off real salty. I said this much, but it fell on deaf ears I s'pose.
I showed Taxman progress on a Sonic fangame directly inspired by his work just earlier this week, after the announcement, and he thought it was cool and asked for updates. So I don't think Mania will do anything to existing or future fangames.
The "reimagined zones" sound like executive meddling to me. I'm guessing that they weren't part of the teams original vision for the project, but it's probably something that SEGA insisted upon. The thing about anything that hearkens back to the classic days is that it relies on nostalgia. Creating a good game is one thing, but SEGA constantly want people to be saying "oh I remember that! That's the Sonic I know and love!". From some of the downright embarrassing reactions and impressions I've seen from journalists and the wider internet, like "Knuckles is too future for me" and "why is he so slow", it's for the best that the nostalgia pandering is kept up amongst the new content. As much as we're all die-hard fans and may be sick of it here, people who aren't quite as vested in the series won't be seeing it the same way. And as it stands, Taxman himself has said that GHZ1 is probably the tamest the of the bunch. It starts off like an updated act 1, then kind of combines act 2 into it with a new upper path and ends being something wholly original in the middle of the cave. Judging from the trailer, the cave is the main setting for act 2. So even if it's still Green Hill, at least it's an original take on it. Heck, it's a damn sight more original than the supposedly new Splash Hill and Windy Hill in Sonic 4 and Lost World. I'm really excited to see how it all pans out! Plus there's going to be other zones from S2, S3, SK and SCD. Hopefully just one stage from each and the remainder of the game will be fresh ideas.
Not gonna say that I know what the real reason behind the desicion to reimagine zomes but to me it looks like it's likely Stealth/Tax's desicion cause these zones already exist in the engine and that'd be a cost efficient way to lengthen the game. Also I get that you wanna make SEGA look bad in comparison but windy hill? Less original than "reimagined" green hill, really?
Windy Hill Zone from Lost World is not original. Everything on there screams "That is so Green Hill!" It's a bad look on the main team's part because they tried to sell that crap to us like we can't tell it's basically the same.
#1 Fangames fall under fair use. Anyone who takes down a fan game is abusing copyright laws (which need to be updated... looking at you nintendo youtube >_>) futher more that sunky game could be sold too, cause it falls under-parody laws. So you should read up on what violates Copyright. #2 you've holistically missed the point and I'm not downplaying anything, or cheapening anything. I'm glad mania exist - and I will be getting my day 1 copy, I appreciate the team behind it but on the same vein I call a spade a spade and I like to be objective anytime I criticize something. Theyre climb to where they are now has nothing to do with the product itself nor am I jealous of the them, quite the contrary actually (the only thing that can be said to me of jealousy is of them doing something they love to do and me not being there YET), so I ask you to simmer down and understand what I'm really trying to say. . . . (I have answer but it's not easy to put into words so im gonna go with "no its not?") . . . No. Yes it happens a lot - The existence of the term Metroidvania (which is a complete BS term) - Sonic Xtream > Ratchet & Clank > Super Mario Galaxy > Sonic Lost World (look how people talk about lost world) _ its not even limited to games... Academy Battle City Asterisk and The Heroic Tales of the Failure Knight just look a those conversations. The human mind can only think of so much. but this has nothing to do with the same idea or not this has to do with perception. Lange basically answered the question. but let me explain my point for those that missed it. To be clear I NEVER once said they stole, Stealing implies they looked at someone's creation and activity took that from them and presented it as their own. In my situation they didn't even known about them; so how could they have "stolen" it. (I personally it was bound to happen on one of the ideas since we appear to have the same general idea forming our game.) .... (moving to my point) .... As a creator myself of art and design I feel like everyone wants to feel original or say "this particular idea comes from me" and the fact that I've been on quite a few fan game teams, sonic and otherwise. I've seen this trend, of chaining ideas, comparing ideas, viewing ideas, avoiding ideas, and so on just so that they aren't like the next guy or seen in a way that stands under the shadow of a particular game. Feeling original or doing something original or standing out despite its origin is what they/we strive for. In the case of Sonic fan-games, the void which Lange mentioned I would say is specifically only relevant to this fandom. Also the fact that specifically most fan-games never get finished is specific to sonic as well, unlike Mario, Rock-man, and other communities (and don't say its cause they're easier to make cause that's not true - maybe the M.V.P. is easier but overall they are not easier to make). Never the less Sonic fan-game creators like the others pride themselves on their own ideas that they bring to the franchise and that's like the fundamentals of marketing 101 and that's what separates Sonic Classic from Sonic & Tails. With all that said... ENTER Mania, the monolith that is a Professional Sonic fan-game/Official Sonic game and Don't look at me like I'm writing it off because "its just like a fan-game" I get hyped for fan games, since when is being a fan-game a bad thing, and I'm looking forward to Mania too (though not as much as some have shown) But OBJECTIVELY SPEAKING it looks no different than a highly polished fan game (that probably wouldn't get finished) and also from a business stand point I know why SEGA wants it that way - but I'm straying from my point. The point is With Big brother Mania how will it effect the view of fan games in development or sonic fangames on a whole? To both the creators and the audience. Will people change their vision so they don't look like they just hopped on the Mania band wagon? Will Sonic fan-games be avoided or die out with this generation now that something Official of the same nature is now filling that void? Just look at Sonic Classic 2's topic with Hez basically saying there is no point to continue with his game since Mania is coming out. Will Mania bring more "customers" to the Sonic fan game scene to check out fan-games that aren't only made by Lake? Will later fan-games get talked about with the "just like mania" treatment even though the ideas were well in development before hand or end up in battle with Mania, just like Sonic 4? (personally I've grown to hate the "this is what Sonic 4 should have been" or "this is the real sonic 4" supposed compliments flooding the comment sections of fan-games and hacks) DOES MANIA CHANGE THE DYNAMIC OF PERCEPTION TOWARDS FAN GAMES? Leaving other questions out those are more or less the questions I was asking in my initial post. PS: -ep1 > ep2- and this is very long can some one put this in a spoiler box or somthing idk how
The "toe-stepping" point is interesting, but wholly irrelevant to Sonic Mania in particular. The audience for Sonic fan games mostly comprises those who are familiar with other fan games, so even if Sonic Mania wasn't endorsed by Sega it would run the risk of "scooping" features that others might have planned. As does Sonic Overture and every other up coming Sonic related game. Ultimately if an idea is good and implemented well, it won't matter who came up with it first or who thinks it's a ripoff. There's room for a lot of Sonic games; I think the fact that we're all still clamouring for Sonic Mania after 5 great 16-bit games and countless fan games and hacks proves that. For me personally, its existence does nothing to lessen my interest in seeing what other things the rest of the community comes up with. One thing that is a little concerning, though, is that Sega was never in the business of "fan games" (for lack of a better term), so now that they are officially stepping into that territory, I wonder if there's going to be a greater risk of cease and desist for the rest of us. Edit: read your latest post after posting this. Yes, Mania will certainly change the dynamic and the perception of fan made games, both inside and outside the community. Every high profile release, official or otherwise (think Sonic 4, Sonic Fan Remix, etc) does.
No they don't. nope Maybe. Arguably the Steam version of the megadrive collection getting mod support helps more, though. nope I would say their recent actions suggest the opposite. Opening the megadrive collection to mod support is a big step towards embracing the scene. By contracting Tax and Stealth and PGW they show they realize the value of this mod-grown talent. This is basically how Valve has been operating for years. When Sega acquired atlus, they spoke a lot about how they wanted to understand the Atlus mindset of embracing small cultures and cultivating a passionate fanbase.
It seems like they're more friendly towards it. They did open up the Genesis library to Steam Workshop mods.
You can look at things more historically, too, with their friendly stance towards emulation going all the way back to Steve Snake. Sega has a history of legitimizing grey area scenes rather than shutting them down. Sega has benefited from this stuff for a long while now. They also license out their name for use with SOAC clones, which is basically free money to Sega.
There was that Streets of Rage remake they shut down around the same time they did their own rerelease, so it's not like there's no precedent, but I'm not really worried.
That place took donations, however. I think asking if fan gaming will die out because they are compared to Mania misreads the reason many people do this stuff in the first place - just because they can. Sure, there are undoubtedly people into the scene for competition and recognition, but I'd wager an enormous number of people in every dev scene do what they do for the enjoyment of doing it. I sure as hell do. There will always be people who tinker, it's a mindset. It's like taking apart a radio and putting it back together, that sort of stuff. Besides, fan games are already held against the standard that is the actual genesis games.
