Sonic's character design and aesthetic

I kind of disagree. Adventure 1 I felt was a genuine attempt to see how well they could do Sonic in a 3D space. It was more realistic, sure, but it also had a lot of surrealist aspects in its level design and I felt that the basic plot (though how the plot was executed...god it runs entirely on idiocy) was a bit of a continuation with Sonic 3 in a lot of ways - emphasis on the Chaos Emeralds and their relationship to the Master Emerald, the history of the Master Emerald etc. The artwork made for the characters was intensely stylized and fluid, much like how Ohshima's Classic stuff seems to hate the concept of bones. Robotnik's mecha designs could easily be translated into 2D bosses in the classics, IMO.

For me I felt that the Adventure reboot fell apart in SA2. Even as a kid I was never really fond of the obvious attempt at more realistic art direction and how certain storylines and gameplay styles felt like obligations*. The levels are drab save for Cannon's Core, the character models are drab, and many, MANY of the environments are in reddish city environments, brown mountain or tomb environments, or grey military bases, and on top of all that, the blatant asset reuse for some of them just made them even more dull. The most interesting uses of color in the game are....in the Chao Gardens. The damn Chao Gardens are the only levels in the game that actually feel like Sonic environments outside of the obligatory Green Hill Zone remake.

Hell, even the character artwork is more stiff and obviously trying to be "radical" harder than SA1's was, which is impressive given that the Adventure-era character art is early-2000s to the extreme.

After SA2 I really feel like Sonic Team were either being tugged around by the executive's whims like a kite (given Sega's history of throwing Sonic Team to the wolves seemingly every development cycle, this wouldn't surprise me) or were utterly lost on what makes a Sonic game even in the manner of basic art direction. Sonic Heroes felt like them overcompensating for SA2's art direction but it still felt like they were kind of...faking it to me, IMO, and then they overcompensated for that with Shadow.

I can at least understand Unleashed/World Adventure's inspiration, it basically being a logical extension of Sonic Team's love of basing their levels off of real places going all the way back to Sonic 2. I haven't actually played a 3D Sonic title since Heroes though (that was when I said "that's it, I quit") so I can't really say anything about it other than that the music is amazing

Going back to the current Sonic design: I have no idea what puts me off about it, but something does. I definitely hate how the mouth is done because it feels like they added too much detail to it and it kind of freaks me out. The design looks kinda...stiff? Just how they keep posing it in 2D art. I can practically see the rigging on the model. Of course though...with a model that has that many vertices in it, doing vertex animation (like the original Crash Bandicoot games) would be intensely painful and time-intensive for some intern who is making the artwork to slap on merch. Maybe it's the proportions? I dunno, he just seems overly stiff and sterile to me. I wouldn't go for hoping that Sega would harken back to the 90s feel, because we all know they'd take that wrong and make him painfully "radical" without an ounce of actual genuine feel to it.

*(And just touching on gameplay...the gem hunting is UTTERLY WORTHLESS save for the one level where Rouge is stealing Chaos Emeralds. Literally the beginning of their respective storylines is: we suddenly cut to Knuckles and Rouge arguing over the Master Emerald, in an environment that doesn't at all match the last games because we must reuse level assets, and then lol suddenly Eggman appears and steals and Knuckles shatters it instead of kicking Eggman's sorry butt. PLOT!)

 

I haven't commented on Modern Sonic's design yet, but surprise, I hate it. It's just awful. Sometimes when posed the right away I'll admit it can look good. But overall it's a hot mess. The limbs and hands and feet or something look out of proportion. His forehead is huge. Basically looks like an alien. Going forward with the series I would prefer a blend of old and new Sonic. Not crazy alien like modern, but not as squat and puffy as classic. But classic would work in a separate series similar to New Super Mario Bros.

I remember when I first booted up Sonic Generations, and I saw the 2 Sonic's side by side. It made me rage. Honestly. Just seeing that homunculus Sonic design that Sega settled on. It just epitomized the series of bad choices they've made.

Look... LOOK.... LOOK AT WHAT THEY'VE DONE TO YOU!!!

 

As opposed to Classic Sonic having a head the size of his entire rest of his body. Welcome to the world of stylized cartoon characters.

I've never understood the hate for modern Sonic. He looks like Sonic. A little taller, a little longer spines, a little darker blue, and ABOMINABLE GREEN EYES!

I dunno. It looks like Sonic developed. I don't see people demanding Kirby go back to having a tiny face and pointy arms. I don't see people demanding Mario go back to being squat and fat.

 

Who is demanding anything? You quote me in one breath and then use my own words to misrepresent me in the next. Most people are expressing a preference but ultimately asking for depth and compromise. Why must we keep exaggerating oneanothers statements creating division where mostly agreement exists?

 

The entire argument of modern Sonic in this topic has been a revolving door of people over-exaggerating with utmost contempt the differences between it and classic Sonic ("homonculus Sonic"? Talking as if it's the design equivalent of "sombrero and springy eyeball glasses on Sonic"? lmfao guys really?), someone pointing out that it's not THAT big of a difference or simply stating a milder opinion in contrary of it, which is then followed by shock as if the person pointing that out was making some bold or harrowing accusation.

Not sure why it's even worth discussing if that's all to come out of it.

And I'm not one to really disagree with the statements on Sonic's renders, current day personality in the games, nor the weird mouth thing in Colors/Gens/LW. Its just that the entire topic of modern Sonic so far has just been a constant dragging of it in every fashion imaginable, with little to no open ears on traits people like about it.

So here's my question: Is there any single trait from the design that you like (directed to the people who don't)? Because I mean like it or not, things like the green eyes have been around twice as long as the classic era even existed, so even if they redesign Sonic again those traits are kinda stuck to him at this point. I think this question is the biggest example of what 'compromise' means, so what's the word?

 

Considering your heated choice of phrasing and unironic use of caps lock, I feel perfectly justified in using the word "demanding" in a hyperbolic sense to refer to the general hatred for Modern Sonic's design as opposed to Classic Sonic's.

Also, nice job pulling out semantic arguments and using buzzwords to try and shut down dissent and make me look like the bad guy. I'm guessing that's all you've got to defend your subjective stance?

You're allowed to dislike whatever you like for whatever reasons you like. Conversely, I'm allowed to say "I don't think that's a very strong argument." and give my reasons. If you're gonna debate me, then debate me, but don't pull weasel tactics like this.

If we're going to say what we like or dislike about the designs specifically, I do think that Classic Sonic is cute and appealing, but Modern Sonic actually looks like a runner, with the longer limbs. I also think Modern Sonic looks more natural curled into a ball. His proportions seem more suited for it. Classic Sonic ends up in a more ovular shape due to how big his head is and how short everything else is. Even the better looking older art of him spinning still kinda looks like he's revolving around his head, instead of spinning from the center of his curl.

 

I think a lot of people dislike modern Sonic and coldsores, I can't change that. What I don't appreciate is being mischaracterized. I think modern Sonic is off the mark, but I also advocated for a middle ground between the two of them. I conveyed that I no longer think classic Sonic is appropriate either, with the exception of a split branch like NSMB. Does Modern Sonic have any design I appreciate? Sure, like I said at some poses he can look good. I also have no concern over the eye colour, which I have yet to hear anyone mention except for those who keep bringing it up to discredit our opinions. And such a strange thing to claim cannot be changed at this point in time, green eyes... They were black, then green, and just like that they could be black again, simple. For the 10th time, I've never advocated for throwing away everything that's happened over the last 20 years. Don't like my choice of description, "homunculus"? Google it. It describes modern Sonic's proportions pretty well actually. It's one thing to use an over the top example such as a sombrero to make a point, and it's something else to alter what someone actually said or misrepresent their intent. I stand by my opinion that modern Sonic design is a hot mess, but that doesn't mean I'm not willing to make concessions to find consensus. These stupid examples like green eyes are only brought up to portray the opinions of people you don't agree with as unreasonable, if you want to talk about weasel moves. I strongly dislike modern Sonic design, a lot of us do, maybe even the majority, but so long as you keep portraying everyone who disagrees with you as unreasonable or altering their intent to suit your purposes, every discussion devolves into THIS.

As for my argument as to why modern sonic is bad design. Again, proportions are way off. He moves too rigid. I'll add that his chest is puffed up and stuck to his chin in an odd way. He's too tall, forehead too tall. And yes it's subjective. I can't deny that. Your opinion is too. All I can do to objectively make my point is reference declining sales over the last 2 decades, but I can hardly blame that on his appearance alone. It doesn't help that Sonic is now a "runner", as opposed to a platformer.

Moving on.

 

If you really think the opinions of a couple of the same people posting in a circle on Sonic Retro is the "majority" then you're pretty sorely mistaken. Plus, there's no way anything we're saying is hyperbole when you and other people on the subject come off with such hilarious amounts of vitrol. I haven't even had a second of bad things to say about classic Sonic's design but let me question the lack of chill going on and them's the brakes!

But yeah, moving on.. sorta?

I agree with Cyberguy's thoughts on Sonic's design, and I can honestly see a pretty practical reason why they would make Sonic's limbs/spines slightly longer, and both are rooted in Sonic's visibility in a 3D game. Now before you tear that apart, hear me out.

For Sonic's limbs and spikes, we can see those perfectly fine from a 3/4s and side view, which is what we view of him at all times in a 2D / 2.5D game. With that, we can tell how much power he's putting behind his movement, and our perception on the shapes that make up Sonic's body are never compromised. However, if you put that in a behind/forward view, things aren't going to be so clear. Example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ficEvFBYOec
(this is gameplay of classic sonic modded into modern sonic's level in case you're wondering why the level doesn't look designed for him lmao)

It doesn't seem to strongly convey how much strength is in Sonic's movement, does it? At least not nearly as much as it does from the side. This is mostly because Sonic's arms are tucked forward and are thus almost invisible to the player, and his feet seem to be scuttering across the floor instead of pushing him forward thanks to how short the legs are. I believe the idea of longer limbs (and altered running animation, featuring the pushed back arms from the Peelout move) were more than reasonable, since it meant that you could better see the force being exerted from Sonic's movement at the angle that you'd most often be seeing it in.

Granted you could also answer this by using a little more squash and stretch movement to emphasize the pep in his step, but I think a combination of the two would really make it work.

Now, about the spines. During the early 3D era when they were using the 3D Blast / R / Jam model (which is adorable might I add), it was proving not too easy for Sega to figure out how to make Sonic's spikes work in a very easy to understand way for the third dimension. Sonic was at his spikiest then, but his head (or the camera) seemed to always be tilted downward when moving so that you could see the spikes' shapes for what they were.However if you were to look at an on-level front view of Sonic, you couldn't very clearly see Sonic's spines at all! Despite the top spike, his head almost looked rounded (at least for a 32/64 bit era model).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hs-iBAeNZKk
(note the stretch on Sonic's spikes as he runs. Nice touch imo! I could really go for more of that in stuff nowadays)


(the shape of his head from a direct front view)

So I think the reason they made his spikes longer in the redesign was also to make it out much clearer from front and back that Sonic's spikes had a sort of curvature to them, and could be seen without having to compromise camera positioning.

So for all of those reasons I can see why they were both made longer. Granted I think that they went too far in that direction in later titles (wayyyyy too far), but by Unleashed they'd trimmed down the length significantly (though they went a little longer again in Gens to emphasize the differences between modern and classic Sonic), and by Lost World (at least in-game) and mobile game Sonic Runners, his limbs and spines are almost as short as they used to be! So yeah.

While I think those were all more than reasonable changes, I do think classic Sonic's timelessness comes from how adorable he is; a perfect example being the previously shown Jam/R model. Sonic's got more charm there than he has in most things, but I do think that (whilst not perfect) the current design does the job too in a different way, helping make a more.. how do I say, personable Sonic? If Sonic Team were to try to capture the 'cute' quality again and apply it to the modern design after where it's been going, I think we'd be heading the direction of the best design.

But yeah. ¯\_(?)_/¯

 

I don't want to antagonize myself to your opinion because frankly it's an opinion and it has all rights to exist but when people throw lines like that it just pisses me off so much.
I can see how SA design is flawed cause it was their first attempt at new design so it's unrefined. I also don't like Heroes design myself but mostly cause it's closely tied to awful characterization.
But I had literally zero problem with Unleashed design. Proportions feel right. Facial features looks good. Spikes are as spiky as they should get. And overall that design is pleasant to the eye.
I don't see how modern design is any more "obviously" flawed than classic design. Both designs are good in my book.

 

sonic runners with touch thinner limbs and black eyes and more animated body language
there, you got the perfect sonic to go forwards with
I take check or cash money

 

It might be a good question at it's core but it also is a loaded question.

 

My two cents:
I like classic Sonic's design.
I like modern Sonic's design.
I generally prefer modern, green eyes and all.
But yeah, I like Sonic.
Thank you for your time.

 

And that's what I've meant this whoooole time.

The entire discussion in this topic is super ultra mega loaded, with the presumption that obviously one design style is undeniably bad and the other is undeniably good. Accepting anything from the 'bad' one is compromise in the worst of ways while accepting anything from the 'good' one is showing appreciation of some form of high art.

You can't say "rip it up" and genuinely mean it if your definition of "rip it up" means "use my favorite design". If you can't see how biased that is then the discussion comes down to pointlessness.

Which is where I resign, because I'm tired of this. See ya boyos!

 

I like both designs. For me Classic is more cute and authentic of the two but Modern is more expressive and daring.
Keep both is the simplest and possibly best solution I can come up with. I want games with classic Sonic which are gameplay oriented with solid mechanics and high emphasis on platforming set in colorful imaginative worlds with simple story but I also want flashy story/character driven games featuring Modern Sonic with a better sense of speed and possibly less substantial but more stylish gameplay.

 

Hold up there buckaroo. That ain't constructive to the discussion, this is exactly why these kinds of topics go down the tubes (when it's not flame wars anyway). You're basically trying to make an irrefutable close on a subjective matter and as much as I badly want to say otherwise it is still subjective. It's like I said earlier, the bridge between subjectivity and objectivity is theory. There's theory to art and design that make things balanced and appealing to common human senses. You're right that there is a degree of objectivity in things, and if everything were pure subjectivity then yeah, how would anything get done. That's what theory is for and what gives weight to discussing things like these.
Despite saying it's subjective I'll still outright say that late classic era Sonic is the best design he's ever had. Not necessarily because it's objective fact, but because how it's ideal in theory. There's also context to the design, and his design gives context to things around him. The series had a very strong, cohesive aesthetic back then.









Honestly, I don't know how anyone can look at this and say the modern design is just as good or better, let alone not see this as the best design Sonic's ever had. But others do feel that way, for one reason or another. I want to explore that and understand it despite how I think and feel about it. There's been a lot of good arguments made in this thread already.

 

A: That is not a fact. That is an opinion.
B: Your question was loaded. Anyone who would answer that question would be forced to state that the modern sonic design is "obviously flawed", whether they think so or not. This is the very definition of a loaded question.
C: You haven't even stated what these "obvious flaws" are, so your argument doesn't even have merit.


You say "The reason they are my favorite designs is because they are the best designs Sonic has ever had." So? What about these designs make them "the best designs Sonic has ever had". All you are doing is merely stating opinion without giving any specifics, and then when pointed out as such, passing such dissent to the side.