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Sonic Classic Heroes

Discussion in 'Engineering & Reverse Engineering' started by flamewing, Nov 2, 2010.

  1. Brainulator

    Brainulator

    Regular garden-variety member Member
    Ignoring the lulzy accidental copyright symbol, perhaps Team Dark/Shadow could do that job?

    I also don't see anything (newly) continuity-breaking with allowing Sonic and Knuckles to visit each other's paths. But how would the game know which spawning point to select? Also, the water works differently between Sonic/Tails gameplay and Knuckles gameplay in AIZ, CNZ, and LBZ.
     
  2. I still think Fang would fill that role nicely.
     
  3. REPO Man

    REPO Man

    Member
    Merge S3C with SCH, S Factor and Sonic 1 Megamix and put it on the Sega CD.

    Also, add Bridge Zone and do single-player versions of the 2P Sonic 3 levels (like what I believe Taxman wanted to do with his proposed Sonic 3 port). And all the excised Sonic 2 levels.

    *in Marge Simpson voice* AND A BOTTLE OF TEQUILA!!!!
     
  4. rata

    rata

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    What about Knuckles Chaotix? You didn't name Knuckles Chaotix. You're forgeting Knuckles Chaotix. Merge all those and Knuckles Chaotix in MCD-32X.
     
  5. REPO Man

    REPO Man

    Member
    Alright, Knuckles Chaotix is in it too, but it must submit to the 2-3 act format.
     
  6. flamewing

    flamewing

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    Sonic Classic Heroes; Sonic 2 Special Stage Editor; Sonic 3&K Heroes (on hold)
    I know you guys are joking, but here is a more serious answer because people keep suggesting SCD and/or 32x as options:

    The major problems with the SCD are that (1) it does not add any real capabilities other than the ASIC and audio hardware and (2) it really cripples the architecture of the game to 512kB parts loaded to WRAM: for everything, including character art, shield art, level chunks (can't use main RAM for that), level code and so on. Team Sonic alone requires around 380kB in graphics, and this is without counting any of the level art, layout, chunks, blocks, and so on. SCH is literally impossible on the SCD.

    The major problems with the 32x are that (1) its emulation sucks, (2) almost nobody has one, (3) it makes things too hard and (4) it makes things too easy:
    1. Its emulation sucks: making a hack that works on console based on what you get on emulators is almost impossible; it just can't be done. You need to test it on console.
    2. Almost nobody has one: which means a severely limited audience for playing on console, and everyone else playing on emulator. So one could worry about making it work on emulator only. At this point, why not just make a fangame instead of a hack?
    3. It makes things too hard: from its horrible main processors (the twin SH2), to its "VDP" exposing nothing but a framebuffer (so everything needs to either be done in the Genesis VDP or in software on the SH2 processors), a nightmare of synchronization. Basically, the 32x is a mess to deal with.
    4. It makes things too easy: more RAM, less palette limitations. I could literally have a 'make your team' approach without any problems. I have even imagined the color assignments that could be used to allow that. So no fun in terms of challenge.

    The major problems of SCD+32x: take the worst part of the 32x, and make it worse by having you need to synchronize with the SCD as well.
     
  7. Brainulator

    Brainulator

    Regular garden-variety member Member
    Sega Saturn? That's just a different console altogether.

    Yeah, it's clear that it was too epic for the console family to handle.
     
  8. REPO Man

    REPO Man

    Member
    DAMMITDAMMITDAMMITDAMMITDAMMITDAMMITDAMMITDAMMIT!
     
  9. flamewing

    flamewing

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    Actually, except for Chaotix and CD audio, everything could be done on plain Genesis: get some great SMPS ports of SCD songs (like those by S_T_D, ValleyBell and IvanIO on BFD), find a good way to implement SCD's special stage without the ASIC (and it can be done, as MarkeyJester proved), and find another way to do the movies, and all you need is ROM space. So all that would remain is to bug emulator and Everdrive devs to properly implement the SSF2 mapper, and S1+S2+S3&K+SCD would be doable on plain Genesis. (as a bonus, mode 1 could be added to play CD audio if a Sega CD is available with the "correct" CD inserted)

    The major issue with including SCD with the others would be that it feels completely different and does not mesh well with the others. From exploration-based design that actively hampers speed, to the time travel mechanic, to time stones. Moreover, it feels odd to restrict time travel to only a few levels, and it doesn't make sense story-wise to extend it to the other levels. Also, the time stones and all other emeralds: they create a good future in the SCD portion, are useless for the rest of the game, and you could theoretically be Hyper for SCD (if doing it like SCH). Plus they are also gotten through big rings at the end of levels.

    Hmm, just realized another issue with SCH+S3&K: would you lose al emeralds at tthe start of S3&K or just the Chaos emeralds? And what would the Super Emeralds do?

    But to be fair, SCD-Heroes seems more likely than S3&K-Heroes at the moment, and neither seem particularly likely.
     
  10. nineko

    nineko

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    Hey :'(

    I mean, I know they're better than me, but...
     
  11. Brainulator

    Brainulator

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    I suppose the Super Emeralds would unleash Ultra Sonic, Ultra Tails, and Ultra Knuckles: immune to everything (except time overs), running at high speeds may allow characters to fly freely a la Doomsday Zone, preventing bottomless pit deaths, their bonus attacks can instantly kill all enemy types (including bosses), and their afterimages would be extreme. But that's just me.

    But what about the S3 and SK special stages? Would both have to be completed to get to the Super Emeralds?

    I also noticed that Sonic 3K Heroes would nullify the Sol Emeralds.

    @nineko, it's just a few examples, so many other users were likely excluded. He might also think your Sonic 3 PC credits theme (Knuckles Emerald Hunt) is worse than ValleyBell's (Sonic 3 Complete), so there's that. And I put the hacks' names there for clarity.
     
  12. Jeffery Mewtamer

    Jeffery Mewtamer

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    Are there any technical hurdles to porting Chaotix to vanilla genesis beyond having to rewrite all SH2 code in a hypothetical dis assembly as 68k code, perhaps having to downsample some palettes and maybe optimizing some CPU-intensive code? I mean, I know next to nothing about the nitty-gritty of retro hardware, but isn't a faster CPU and support for 16-bit true color the biggest things the 32X bring to the table?
     
  13. flamewing

    flamewing

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    I don't think I used any of your SCD ports in BFD, did I? Unless they were in IvanIO's hack, and I got them through him (in which case I owe you an apology).

    And yes, I do like your work; I was just listing examples from recent memory

    And PWN sound (several examples of it). The issue of porting Chaotix would be graphics: downsampling all graphics would be painful enough; but you also need to be able to scale characters up and down (for the size monitors), which will be hell on limited VRAM; if going for KC-Heroes, you would need space for a third character, as well as enough palette entries for super transformation; and so on. I also think Chaotix uses alpha on some cases, but don't quote me on that.
     
  14. rata

    rata

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    I know, I'm late and still it doesn't really matter because it won't happen at least not in Classic Heroes, but here it is:

    The 6 Chaos Emeralds won't make you super, as in S1. Also, Super Sonic in S1 get's pretty dumb. When you go to S2, you get the Sol Emeralds which allow you to go Super. Then you go to SK3 where you lose the Sol Emeralds (instead of Chaos) and collect them again to be super. And then the Super Emeralds to get Hyper as in SK3. The Chaos Emeralds will be required only to have the happiest ending.
     
  15. Clownacy

    Clownacy

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    But then you have the problem of losing the Chaos Emeralds in the S&K portion while you obtain the Super Emeralds. It wouldn't make sense for the Sol Emeralds to be taken away, and turned into Super Emeralds, and taking away the Chaos Emeralds wouldn't take away Super transformation, as it used to.
     
  16. rata

    rata

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    What I mean is that S2's Sol Emeralds take the place of Chaos Emeralds of SK3. The Chaos Emeralds won't be lost after *Fang* hit's the team as they are used only to have a happy (happier) ending.
     
  17. Zycor

    Zycor

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    For Sonic 3 and Knuckles you could just have Knuckles/Not Knuckles steal your emeralds and have the sol emeralds do like dark matter and just fall through the stage or something, thus you need to get all the Sonic 3 emeralds and Super Emeralds. :eng101:

    I think that's the easiest way to go about it, it would make sense story wise, but if you want to take other people's suggestions, I think this would be the easiest, granted I'm not entirely sure how that would work. I would say if you're going from Sonic 1 to Sonic 2, maybe just get rid of Sonic 1's chaos emeralds by having the cutscene where Sonic has them fly away and the flowers change color and Eggman stomps on the GAME OVER text.

    I don't know if you actually have the ending cutscene for Sonic 1, but that would probably work for the best if you have to collect emeralds in Sonic 2 anyways.

    So, Sonic 1 Ending, emeralds fly away and do nothing change the color of the flowers and disappear from your inventory (much like how Sonic 2 you have no emeralds) then Sonic 2 you collect the emeralds, and then Sonic 3, you lose them to Knuckles and have to get them again and get the Super Emeralds later. I think that would be the most sense making thing storywise, follows the original trilogy even. You could even add in a part where Sonic attacks Knuckles first in Sonic 3
     
  18. Why is anyone bothering to analyze what Brainulator says at this point? >.>

    + - Zycor's got it right   :v:
     
  19. Brainulator

    Brainulator

    Regular garden-variety member Member
    If what you're getting at is that no one's analyzing my statement, why does it matter? Why are talking about stuff that won't be implemented?
     
  20. Well, there's three ways I can think of off hand to go with this:

    1: Give all the other zones time travel :p Would be way too much work, at least to make sure it's not a palette swapped identical copy, and holy shit would it bloat cartridge space.

    2: Remove Sonic CD's time travel. Reduces file size and doing a ton of work for other zones at the cost of Sonic CD's main gimmick.

    3: Separate it from the other games. It'd still be on the same rom file, but you play it separately from S1+2. There's already the option to play S1 and S2 alone along with Special Stages so having another game wouldn't be too out of place. Has the downside of bringing up the point of using all the space to put it on the same rom and take up room other features could have when you could just have it separately and have about the same effect aside from loading a different game any time you want to play the other.

    I'd love more than anything to see Classic Heroes have S1-3K + SCD but it'd definitely be an undertaking figuring this stuff out. Also would make the non-stop Special Stage run a lot more interesting.