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Playing the "Bad" Sonic Games

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Dr. Corndog, Jan 25, 2015.

  1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fM54YwntL5Y
     
  2. DigitalDuck

    DigitalDuck

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    Because I love seeing people get upset at silly and trivial things.
     
  3. TimmiT

    TimmiT

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    Hey man time travel can be cool if it's done well. And if it isn't done well it's usually hilariously badly done. So really time travel is cool all the time.
     
  4. Time travel is only a concept that should be introduced in a game if the writers have a clear notion of what is supposed to happen and how it will affect the present/future. Too many times have I seen time travel be used haphazardly in games and it just either ends up ruining the plot by creating large and vague loopholes. Sonic '06 is a prime example of this. If done well it can lead to a piece that is very entertaining to go through. I would like time travel to be introduced again, only if it is decent.
     
  5. DigitalDuck

    DigitalDuck

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    Once again, the time travel in Sonic '06 was done well. Do I need to bring out that megapost again?
     
  6. Sure. I haven't the slightest clue because I've never heard such a statement before.
     
  7. DigitalDuck

    DigitalDuck

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    Oh hey, I have a fixed version right here:


    Have fun.
     
  8. Ok. You did a great job combing through this, and I vastly applaud you for doing so, but that entire analysis is why I say 06 has it bad. If it was well written there would be no need whatsoever for that analysis to have been done. You wrote 8 different timelines and were able to fit everything into a finalized form at the end (excluding the last story because that just screws everything up), but again to reiterate myself, if it was good, it would be simplistic and there would be absolutely no need for such monotony in order to explain the story if such was the case. Does everything make sense as in your Timeline 3D final? Yes. Should you have needed to do any of that? No. That is the point I'm trying to make.
     
  9. DigitalDuck

    DigitalDuck

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    Did I say I needed to do that? The analysis isn't necessary - it shows that it works in every major theory of time travel. You said "Too many times have I seen time travel be used haphazardly in games and it just either ends up ruining the plot by creating large and vague loopholes. Sonic '06 is a prime example of this." and I'm showing that it isn't; there are no "loopholes", it's entirely self-consistent (ignoring the last story nonsense).

    The only thing that needs to be presented is the last timeline, because that works as-is. And hey, that's what the game presents to you; it even makes it easier by giving you the each of the three main characters' stories in their own personal chronological order. The fact that it can work in every major theory of time travel is a bonus, really.

    ANY story involving time travel involves this when unravelling it. 8(-ish) for Sonic '06 (ignoring the last story nonsense) is good, considering it takes 16+extras for Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure (ignoring the introductory nonsense), and a good few more for FAQ About Time Travel (ignoring the ending nonsense) and Timecrimes. 11 Minutes Ago requires upwards of 60, The Lake House and The Time Traveller's Wife uncountably many, and most other time travel stories simply do not unravel in a coherent manner at all.

    For example, Back to the Future does not work as a time travel story. It is inconsistent with itself even in the first film alone (among any other things, apparently time travel can erase people from existence... but not change their memories), and the other two films make that worse. It's a great film, but only because it's silly and doesn't try to present the time travel as the point of the film. The Futurama film Bender's Big Score, Hot Tub Time Machine, and Blackadder Back & Forth are exactly as you expect in this regard too.

    The Butterfly Effect films fail when they repeatedly remove the reasons for time travel in the first place, yet also involve going back to the same body at the same time multiple times, thus being workable in exactly zero models of time. About Time fails here too (also, what is it about Rachel McAdams and playing the wife of a time traveller? That's three films now).

    The first Terminator film posits itself as fixed time; the second one contradicts this entirely. The third runs consistently with the second in the sense that it's no longer fixed, but the first film cannot happen without it. The less said about Salvation the better.

    Source Code works, but explaining why would spoil the ending; all I'll say is that it belongs in this section.

    Timelime's time machine is illogical in the way that it works, much like TMNT3, A Sound of Thunder is complete bollocks, Premonition doesn't even make sense if you assume the main character is completely crazy and play it in chronological order. And Primer can't even stick to its own rules (going back in time creates a temporal duplicate, except when it doesn't).


    I could go on, but I think you've got the idea. The point is that Sonic '06 works, whichever theory you want to throw at it; something I can say about very few other things. As for complex?

    Sonic's story:
    - Elise kidnapped
    - Save Elise
    - Elise kidnapped again
    - Save Elise again
    - Get sent forward in time
    - Find Chaos Emerald
    - Go back in time
    - Elise kidnapped again
    - Fail to save Elise
    - Go back in time again
    - Save Elise

    Shadow's story:
    - Evil Shadow appears
    - Get sent forward in time
    - Find Chaos Emerald
    - Go back in time
    - Investigate Evil Shadow
    - Go back in time again
    - Learn how to stop Evil Shadow
    - Go forward in time again
    - Stop Evil Shadow

    Silver's story:
    - Large fiery demigod appears
    - Evil Shadow says "Sonic's fault"
    - Go back in time
    - Try to attack Sonic
    - Go back in time again
    - Learn how to stop large fiery demigod
    - Go forward in time again
    - Stop large fiery demigod

    They're not complicated stories at all, and that's more-or-less exactly how they're presented to you when you play the game.

    I suggest 11 Minutes Ago if you want to see what a complex time travel story (that works) looks like.
     
  10. All right. I concede. Both of my arguments have been easily picked apart here and I can clearly see as too how and why. My earlier statements were thoughts I've always had about 06 without me ever really bothering to truly internalize them and check them (how hypocritical and foolish of me, as that is something I say should always be done concerning any type of argument). I thank you for this.
     
  11. DigitalDuck

    DigitalDuck

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    No problem, and it shouldn't affect your opinion on the rest of '06 because ahahaha it's '06. :D
     
  12. Cyberguy

    Cyberguy

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    This argument sounds like it needs another topic, just for it.

    (Though I'd love to see the Little Planet and the Time Stones come back if Time Travel was going to be a thing in a new Sonic.)

    Edit: Ninja wrap up. Forget it. (Though, considering the Cyan emerald got locked into a self-perpetuating time loop, I really fail to see how any 06 timeline could even exist in the first place without wrecking the other Sonic games.)
     
  13. Kyuu

    Kyuu

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    Not gonna lie, I love this post. Glad to see it again :v:
     
  14. DigitalDuck

    DigitalDuck

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    Oh, one disclaimer I had before (and something that was brought up again recently, actually): I always assume each game/location has its own set of Chaos Emeralds, and for the most part Sonic just throws them away ("WHEEEE!") at the end of every game because he's an idiot.
     
  15. Elston87

    Elston87

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    I'm actually currently playing through Sonic '06 myself. As aforementioned, having friends along for the ride makes the game more fun, especially all of the glitches that are thrown into your face before and on Wave Ocean.

    On the other side of the page, I actually enjoyed Shadow The Hedgehog more than most people probably did. I like the game; it has its flaws but I wouldn't label it as a "bad" game. :v:
     
  16. Eviltaco64

    Eviltaco64

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    The Sonic Adventure DX port for XBLA/PSN is good for a glitch run. I tried it once or twice hoping it would be good, but I couldn't stop spin dashing through walls in the Mystic Ruins.
     
  17. Sonic '06. Just a little counterpoint, but if you were to ignore any glitches and plot holes, the game actually plays quite fine. That is, if you can wait through the loading screens. :P

    I believe that the major issues with that game are mainly technical issues, which results as an occasional glitch or bad piece of level design. For example, Sonic can easily fling off of a ramp if you're not in the center, or when Sonic hits a spring in Flame Core and automatically runs into a fire crater without any way of dodging it. Overall, though, it really isn't that bad when you ignore such features.

    I really enjoy how most of the levels were set up. Wave Ocean was nice and open with a sense of direction and choice of paths, and there were many hidden items that would reward players for finding them. This is essentially constant throughout the entire game, no matter which character you're playing with.

    No, I didn't really mind the concept of switching back and forth between characters to advance. I didn't mind finding the three keys with Rouge. I did, however, dislike the fact that Rouge has a hard time jumping off of walls. As for her gliding, it's not too bad. The same applies with Knuckles. Tails was quite fun to play, and I thought the dummy ring weapons were a neat gimmick to his game-play style. I'm guessing that this was an honor to Sonic Heroes. Amy Rose actually controls quite nice. The only issue I have with her involves her hammer being too small and having a wind up. Omega was quite fun to play, but there's a game-breaking trick that everyone knows about. Blaze is quite fun to play, and is one of the smoothest characters in the game.

    As for the main characters, I'd say they almost lived up to their full potential. I really don't have a problem with Sonic's speed. Shadow is a bit slower, and he has a pretty cool combat-style homing attack that I can say works quite well. Silver was also fun. Overall, I really didn't have much of an issue with the characters or how they play. Well, there are some parts that caused me to lose control of certain characters, but it's not too often.

    Yes, there are parts of the game that are badly coded and awfully designed. For example, there's this spring in White Acropolis that will either send you the correct way, or will fling you in the opposite direction into a bottomless pit. The same thing happens in Radical Train. I do NOT like this.

    So, even though there are so many parts of the game that give me a huge sense of paranoia, it really wasn't that bad. When you avoid looking at the technical aspects, it's actually a pretty decent Sonic game. I've completed it almost four times now, and I find it as a really fun time. Well, at least when I'm constantly looking for new bugs and issues.

    The story wasn't too awful, but it could have been written better. Overall, I'd say it's pretty cool. I mean, it's different. Dr. Robotnik is finally evil and threatening again, and Sonic is once again a hero! The final cut-scene in Sonic's story was epic! As for the rest of the game's story, I think it's a great concept. It just needs tweaking. Though, personally, story isn't too important in a video game, as long as a video game is fun.

    If there were anything that I have to complain about when it comes to the game-play, it's the hit detection. It is EXTREMELY sensitive, and player's instincts from the older titles can betray them in this game.

    So what's my point? Sonic '06 wasn't really a "bad" Sonic game, but rather rushed and unfinished. If they would've spent a little longer on it, they would've probably nailed it. Well, at least there would be less glitches. :P

    Though, when compared to the HD version of Sonic Unleashed, it's actually quite nice. In Sonic Unleashed, there's too much trial and error for me to personally enjoy it.
     
  18. TheUltimaXtreme

    TheUltimaXtreme

    Breaking logic since whenever Member
    Does Sonic Labyrinth count?

    I mean, don't get me wrong, it's Sonic Boom slow before Sonic Boom made a Sonic Boom-boom in Sega's big-boy pants. At the least, it had its gameplay centralized and wasn't nightmarishly mind-numbing for the story. Maybe it was more mind-numbing for its gameplay. But I have a fondness for Sonic 3D Blast and Segasonic, so Labyrinth drug me in with a familiar perspective. It spun me for a loop with the difference in gameplay. I was so not used to being SLOW as Sonic. Yet, that sort of helped. Spindashing is the essential to survival in most situations of the Sonic universe, so a game HINGING on spindashing for progression made it seem like more of a gimmick, I think.

    Still, it was an interesting take on Sonic and wasn't crushingly awful.
     
  19. E-122-Psi

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    I didn't mind Labyrinth that much. I mean, yeah it's no work of art, but it's good for wasting half an hour. The engine was stable and the cosmetics and music were okay.

    At least Sonic being slow was the entire point in that game.

    Gems Collection is a shame because had it followed original intentions it would have likely been a pretty solid compilation of very rare and elusive titles (eg. Knuckles Chaotix, SEGASonic Arcade, Eraser, half the Wonder Boy series). For whatever reason however, we got only half of it's intended games, and even less for non-Japanese gamers. Not to mention some emulation/porting issues and PAL gamers suffering due to no 50hz optimisation for most of them (or the right manuals or CD soundtrack, they just don't bother with us!). It was perhaps a bit too ambitious for the consoles it was trying to fit them all on, waiting a generation might have made it more workable. It was fun to have versions of Fighters, CD and R at the time though.

    Speaking of Eraser, I didn't mind it. Sure it was no Mean Bean Machine, but it was on okay-ish tetris knock off and I don't get why people say the sound track is ear grinding. It was one that had the least excuse not to be on Gems either.
     
  20. chaoscollector

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    Boom is the only sonic game I couldn't finish. Shadow is hilarious and has solid enough base mechanics and 06 is just fun for playing around with glitches but boom is just boring... I would play all but boom, it's not worth it