For music, I'd go for the Sonic CD feel myself. [youtube] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9B2ybeAX2Y&feature=fvst [/youtube] You have an entire back catalogue of awesome stuff from the Madchester/Hacienda scene and mid 90s eurodance to draw inspiration form... hell, even rip off if you want to. Always been a big fan of your work, Sonica! If you want someone to help out with level design/layouts and concept art, I'd love to help out.
Oh God this! A new, truly innovative special stage. Perhaps a 3D race of some kind? Obstacles slow you down and you need to get [a] certain time to get the Chaos Emerald.
Instead of the Homing Attack and Air Dash, I would prefer a retooled version of the Insta-Shield which makes Sonic bounce twice as high from enemies and monitors than he would from simply jumping on them. I would also put in a wall jump that behaves more like the one in Rayman Origins and less like Mighty's wall jump from Knuckles Chaotix.
They gave Motobug the ability to turn. That was a good idea Also, SpeedStarTMQ pretty much relayed what I was gonna say. Other than that, I posted a few words on the Homing Attack somewhere in the S4E2 thread.
If you decide to include a new move, do it AFTER you've designed all the levels. That way it makes the move entirely optional, like the spin dash was in Sonic 2 and the elemental shields in Sonic 3. Oh, and don't make it the homing attack.
Just remember that any abilities you include must be totally unique. For example, bouncing higher is something that a bubble shield can achieve. Thinking about it, even wall jumping isn't very 'classic Sonic', because it replaces what would be Knuckles' climbing move and makes Sonic more of an ultimate character rather than the standard. I and a lot of people saw Sonic as an all round character rather than anything ultra special in all the classic and Advance games. He could run fast, even later had a few flips and special spins, but he couldn't glide, couldn't fly, couldn't swim, and relied on skill rather than 'cheating' moves. To stay 'classic' without feeling like you're going in to the realms of a fan game, I personally would actually just bung all of his current attacks in for him (the spindash, the insta-shield and the super peel out), if you're not thinking of including the homing attack that is.
-Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles should definitely be playable along with at least one other playable character, preferably Amy Rose. -Sonic CD's musical style with some influences from S3&K's soundtrack would be badass. I wouldn't go in the route the actual Sonic 4 went in trying to severely limit themselves since that did not work out well at all. Hell, Generations had some great ideas as well when it came to how to approach Classic Sonic's music. -Some of the Sonic screensaver art had some damn good ideas. [LINK] -Sonic 1-3 and CD started off with a green level. While doing that for this version of Sonic 4 would be a safe move, feel free to take risks throughout the game when it comes to the type of levels in it. In other words, don't play it too safe. Experiment. -Please give me the option to disable the time limit if you include it in the game. Those are some ideas for now. I'll probably come up with more later. Edit- Please include Sonic's peel-out move from CD. That move is boss.
If you're thinking of Mega Man X's wall jump, I'd agree. What I would prescribe for Sonic would be a wall jump that's only useful in confined spaces such as in New Super Mario Bros. or Rayman Origins. Sonic would only be able to jump up walls if there is another wall right in front of it. Knuckles, on the other hand, wouldn't need another wall in close proximity in order to go up them. He would just climb up them as usual. Also, if there is going to be a fourth playable character in this Sonic 4, I would recommend it be Espio. Not only can he walk up walls, but on ceilings as well. I'd also throw in his invisibility move from Heroes which would make him invulnerable to specific hazards. Just think of the different alternate routes that could be made with those abilities in mind.
The art style certainly looks cool thus far, but keep in mind that Sonic 4's art style (SEGA's, not yours) took a bit TOO many ideas from the classics. Make it a bit different in design, with different zone tropes and new approaches to classic ones. Don't simply make Emerald Hill Zone in HD, make it your own. It looks good otherwise, but keep that in mind.
I don't know how anyone could view Tails and Knuckles as cheating characters while supporting the idea of Sonic having the homing attack. If someone views Tails and Knuckles as cheating characters, I don't agree with them but okay, I can understand the reasoning behind that view. If someone thinks Sonic 4 should have the homing attack, I also don't agree with that view but hey, the homing attack can be awesome if implimented well like in Sonic Megamix so I understand why some people would want it in Sonic 4. To feel the homing attack should be included while also viewing Tails and Knuckles as cheating characters just makes no sense to me at all. And this makes me more confused on what you want out of Sonic 4. You make it clear you don't want Sonic to feel equal in abilities to Tails and Knuckles because you think of them as cheating characters, yet you also feel Sonic should have the homing attack which takes more control out of the player than Tails' flying or Knuckles' gliding and wall climbing abilities.
Agree with this pretty much (apart from your homing attack stance). Wall jumping negates the point of playing the game again as Knuckles. The sheer fun of Sonic 3k was seeing areas that you couldn't get to as the character you were playing as, reinforcing your desire to play though the game again. Even if it comes down to you just sticking with the tried and tested 3K moveset, so be it! When you try to force yourself to come up with new ideas for the sake of it, they just end up being shit (see the homo-attack in Episode 2). As I said earlier, forget about extra abilities for now. If you can come up with them later, great! But for now just focus on creating a game that Sonic can get through with simple running, rolling and jumping.
Here's my thoughts... 1: Each game steadily used a more elaborate art style than the previous. If your HD-looking picture is the actual art direction for the game, then you're doing great already. If the video you showed using Genesis Sonic sprites is the art direction, you're going to have to take care to make sure the artwork looks authentic as well as also being a logical next step for the series. (That made sense in my head, not sure if it came out right.) 2: Each game added new things to the Sonic formula. Sonic 1 set the basics: high speed, loops (not commonly used), momentum-based physics. Sonic CD (included because I'm fairly certain it was meant as a straight sequel instead of a spin-off) introduced the Spin Dash, Peel-Out (hasn't been seen again), and two new characters (Amy and Metal Sonic). Sonic 2 perfected the Spin Dash, and introduced Tails as a second playable character. Sonic 3/Knuckles introduced Zone transition cutscenes as well as a more elaborate storyline, a new playable character (Knuckles, duh), and unique abilities for each character. As you can see, each game added new ideas to the Sonic formula and pruned out ideas that didn't seem to work. When an idea was accepted by the public as a good one, it was improved upon. An example of this would be the evolution of the Spin Dash from Sonic CD to Sonic 2, Tails going from a Sonic re-skin to having flight abilities, as well as the shield item evolving into the three elemental shields in S3&K. New abilities need to be balanced, though, to prevent a single character from breaking the game's difficulty as well as inadvertantly gaining access to character-specific areas (if you choose to go the S3&K multiple-character route) While the Homing Attack has been proposed as a new Sonic ability to introduce to the classic formula, I feel a more classic-feeling ability to be in order, such as the Peel-Out. Like I mentioned earlier, bad ideas were pruned out from the Sonic series between games, and the Peel-Out never appeared outside of Sonic CD. I believe this to be because the move was generally useless: the Spin Dash served an identical function and also included near-invincibility with the exceptions of crushing, spikes, and pits. However, if you were to implement it more creatively and actually add it to the level design's considerations, it could serve as a fairly useful and unique ability that also makes sense in a canon standpoint. First off, the Peel-Out gave more speed than a Spin Dash. Slopes leading to a tall vertical wall could be areas only accessable with the additional speed the Peel-Out provides. A horizontal breakable barrier could serve as a deterrent for Tails/Knuckles if they're included, Tails being unable to break through using flight, and Knuckles being unable to utilize enough speed to break through if the player has him climb the wall leading to it. Canon-wise, it serves as a logical step between classic gameplay and Sonic developing his Boost ability seen in current games. 3: Chaos Emerald Special Stages always utilized whatever new programming technique Sonic Team learned to implement. Sonic 1 showed off a rotation technique which, if I remember correctly, was a big deal at the time. (The game came out the same year I was born, so I'm going off of things I read about the time). Mode 7 pseudo-3D was the latest thing when Sonic CD through S3&K were released, leading to the 3D used in their Special Stages. Try to keep in mind what system and techniques were available at the time period you're trying to imitate. If the games continued to be released at the same rate Sonic 1 through S3&K were released, I estimate that the Sega Saturn would have been the system the game was released on, so try to keep it's limitations in mind when you design your game. Graphical styles should be taken into consideration as well. If the main game is going to be on the same level as the Genesis Sonic games, suddenly transitioning to a full 3D, Sonic R-looking Special Stage would be rather jarring. However, if you could keep in mind the graphical style used in Blue Sphere, I think that a well-working full 3D Special Stage could be a great idea to implement. Just make sure character and environment graphics are on-par with the standard level designs. ----- I could add more, but my little siblings are bugging me for ice cream. If I think of anything that needs added, I'll either add a new post or edit this one. I hope I brought up at least something useful to think about.
Spin dash was required in Sonic 3K (Lava Reef comes to mind. And Mushroom Hill makes you use it if you get caught in the vine trap.) I believe it was optional in Sonic 2 though, but I'm not sure. To make this a real sequel you'll need. -To keep the shields and abilities from Sonic 3 (Insta-Shield and all the shield abilities. Don't go back to the Sonic 1/2 shield like the official Sonic 4 did.) -Sonic 1 had Sonic, Sonic 2 had Tails and Sonic, Sonic 3 had Sonic, Tails and Knuckles. Following that formula you'd have all those characters plus one more. -Keep Sub-Bosses and act transitions. -a unique 3D special stages. All the classic games had a unique special stage. And after Sonic 1 they were always in 3D. And they all had a unique way to get into them. (coming up with this would probably be hard. But that's just my opinion.) -And an extra move for all the characters. If you can't think of anything that's unique and useful (but not required.) you could always use a variation of the super peel out, though you may want it to work differently than Sonic CD's, since we have the spin dash here super peel out won't be so useful if it' s exactly the same. You'd want to give a good reason to use it rather than the spin dash. ___ Do that and I think it's a true sequel. Looking forward to seeing what you do with this.
I didn't literally mean that playing as the other two characters is cheating, rather that it's much easier as them to plough through levels and find solutions to hard platforming sections. As a child f I knew I'd get stuck I'd always try playing as Knuckles or Tails, usually Knuckles because if I jumped down a pit, I knew I could just cling to the wall and climb back up. The homing attack doesn't do much for Sonic in Sonic 4 because it mostly stops you dead and the level design requires it. If you look at my example of what the homing attack should be it'll give you a clearer idea of what I'd like to see.
Yes but in order to do that they had to include Motobugs, I.e. rehash an enemy concept from 1991 which is not a good idea =P
What would Sonic 4 as I imagined it contain? (caution, my opinions are known to make people crazy with their absurdity) ORIGINAL CONTENT. New badniks, new(ish) level tropes, new music, new ideas. A greater gap between character's abilities. I loved Knuckles having a 'heavier' (smaller) jump in S&K, I'd take it further. Also, since Tails' tails can attack whilst he's willyhelicoptering, weaken his jump? I don't know, experiment. Time attack and score attack and whatever modes to keep me playing. But then, I still play Sonic 1, so... Shorter levels than S3K, just more of them. I'd rather see a follow-up to S2 in this regard personally. Surreal art style. The more out-there, the better. Colours, motherfucker. Yeah, I loves some colours. Platforming. Scale back S3K's rollercoaster sections and vary the pace a bit more like S1 does. ORIGINAL CONTENT. This is important This is just me though; I like S1 and S2 the most. I know a lot of people here want S3K++ and I'd like to bash their face in until naught is left but a greasy red smear on the tarmac outside. But hey, whatever floats your boat guys.
Personally, Sonic 4 as I imagined it does include the Homing Attack. It just needs to be refined, as we've been saying. And it needs to have good music. I don't even care if it emulates the classic style, it has to be GOOD. Sonic games are known for their catchy tunes. Hear that? Bringing back a fan-favorite baddie and improving it is a bad idea, SEGA. BAAAAAD
I was going to rant about the homing attack, but instead I decided to try and suggest a compromise. How about having the homing attack being an unlockable extra that you get for completing the game, which can be turned on in the options screen. Alternatively make it an ability that is confined to a shield, or that only Super Sonic can use.
I always wanted to see something more like that as well, differances between characters that aren't just "lets add a new move" maybe you could drop tails acceleration in the same way knuckles has a lower jump, keep everyone at the same top speed though. Also I say bring back the instant shield for sonic (doesn't get as much love as it should do). As long as you stay firmly in the surreal and don't edge into fantasy. I'm ok with strange plants and geometric level patterns but I was never keen on levels made out of musical instruments and food.
