Sonic Unleashed

Not really—I just worded it sort of backwards. My argument is that the two can not be compared; the rest of my post is what explains why, and in what respects one is better than the other.

I didn't really assess its level design... at least not in my last post. I was saying that, while Empire City is an absolutely brilliant and stunning level, it will not live up to the classic feeling which defined classic Sonic. Because of this, it simply can't live up to the title of "best Sonic level ever," because it doesn't come close to achieving the exact feeling that the classic games did.

I had a discussion with DimensionWarped last night about this, and it's true—people are simply caught up in the moment with this game. I'm not saying the level design is bad at all, but I also think it's very possible for people to exagerrate a bit in the inevitably high achieved from playing, for the first time in years, a good new Sonic game. You may very well be forgetting just how good the older games' level design was.

I know it's good in its own right! In fact, that's why I decided to say it's fair to call it one of the best next-gen levels ever—because, when compared to other games of its own calibur, it can truly shine. Absolutely.

However, in order to define Empire City as one of the best Sonic levels ever, point blank, I have to compare it to the classic games. When you say "best level ever," that means ever--past and present, classic or next-gen, whatever. You can't get out of trying to say "Empire City is better than a lot a majority of classic Sonic levels"; and, quite frankly, it's not. But it is damn good.

This is why I generally don't compare the classic games and the next-gen games—they literally don't compare. I'm able to enjoy the newer games because, being in their own generation, are of totally different design practices, aesthetic choices, and the like. I like new Sonic based on its own merit, but not compared to the classic games, simply because they don't compare. That's why I think a lot of people have been alienated from newer Sonic games—they keep trying to compare it to the older games, when there was never a comparison.

Well, when it comes to subjectively defining how much fun you had with the level compared to the classic games, that's your prerogative—I can't define that for you. But when it comes to judging fundamental design principles of the classic games to the new ones, there is no comparison. Period.

Now, when it comes to a level? Empire City looks, plays, and sounds amazing. I never debated that in the slightest. But we should definitely try and be more realistic in our comparisons, even if we're caught up in the heat of the awesome.

But that's the thing—you're comparing these levels to Emerald Hill, but not the design of Sonic 2's levels as a whole. Remember that Sonic 2 had some very specific goals for each level—some were meant to be linear to accustom the player to the game, some were meant to flow very well to show off speed, and some were meant to contain lots of platforming elements. Each level had its own specific niche—they were all varied and felt unique.

One thing the new games tend to do, though, is have all levels feel the same—you've got running, you've got a section where you stop and fight some enemies, then you have a 2D transition; move onto a platforming section, go around a couple of loops or gimmicks, then QUICK TIME EVENT; branch path, begin cycle over again. I like this design choice, and it's fun and all, but that's not what made Sonic 2 great, for example.

I guess you could say that—the changes made to game design practices contain as much variety and improvement as Sonic 2 had upon the original games. But in terms of literal design? Nah. That's the point I'm trying to make.

 

For the record, I play Sonic CD just about daily. Literally, it's one my favorite things to do while I'm smoking with my friends. I'll play it with my right hand while I smoke with my left. My friends, who don't play sonic, basically have the game memorized by me playing it. In fact, I did that last night.

I don't think it's a sonic high, nor is it blindness towards the classics. Empire city is certainly the height of the game, and I'd never make a claim about, say, Windmill Isle Zone act 1 being one of the best in any sonic games.

I'll just say, reserve your arguments against the level until you play it. It seems odd when you say "you might be forgetting how good the older games are" when you yourself haven't played empire city. However, I'll respect your opinions and not try to sway you. But personally? This IS one of my favorite sonic levels ever.

EDIT: And to clarify, you said that I said "best level ever." I didn't say that, nor would I agree to that. I said "ONE of the best sonic levels ever." There's quite a difference between those two sentences.

 

I don't need to be playing the level in order to be totally caught up in the adrenaline that it delivers. Just watching a gameplay video has me totally caught up and engrossed in how interactive the level is and how well it flows together. In a sense, I'm indeed "getting a high" from simply watching a video of the game. That's insane!

I also consider my ability to be a bit more objective, though, not having played the level. I know whenever I play something awesome, I'm all "OH MY GOD THIS IS THE BEST GAME EVER HOLY FUCKING SHIT." Thing is, though, after that initial hype wears off, I generally reflect a bit more; "Yeah, this level was good, and I loved this part, but in retrospect it wasn't as good as this level or this level... this is why, etc."

I'm just saying that it's better to wait for that hype to wear off before trying to make any bold statements.

There is! But to say "one of" also implies that it must be compared to "one of" (or rather, many of) the classic levels as a basis of comparison. How far does your list of "best Sonic levels" span? What do you consider some of the best Sonic levels? There are a lot of factors involved in considering such a thing.

Like I said in my last post, I can't determine what is fun for you and what is not. I'm only trying to judge solely by design practice, how it has best worked with the series over the years. Ultimately, I believe that everyone's personal list of favorite Sonic levels will be entirely subjective and up to them and their experiences; at the same time, though, I feel as if there are fundamental design choices made in the classic games that literally allow them to be called better designed in comparison to the newer games.

I wish Jan Abaza was here, because he'd be able to explain exactly what I'm talking about here. But trust me, there are very specific reasons that are rather in-depth that can justify the classic games as being better designed.

I'm not telling you what to enjoy. I love Empire City too! I'm just... oh hell, you know what I mean.

 

I can agree with this Tweaker. I will say though, that this game has done an admiral job however giving each level a distinct feel. It may be through the different variations of which perspective, the amount of free run, and the amount of 2D platforming, but I can say at least that the levels feel unique from one another besides visual style. The werehog levels vary even more, with actual design AND the frequency between platforming and fighting. Knock the fighting out, speed sonic up, and make some of the gimmicks a little more speed oriented and I think you could safely say that some of the werehog levels, like holoska, literally are classic sonic.

 

heh, you don't need Jan to explain yourself. I really do know where you're coming from - we generally have similar ideas about what constitutes a good sonic game in general. I'm simply disagreeing with you.

Really, though, I feel it does no good to argue semantics. One of the best sonic levels period, one of the best 3D sonic levels... in the end, all that matters (and what we agree on) is that the level is good. We're becoming so spoiled with this game that we're actually debating "Is it great, or fucking great?" haha

Also, to comment on your reply to shade about level specific gimmicks and how unleashed generally has sterile level design - I'm pleased to report that it really doesn't. This is one of the best parts about Sonic Unleashed, and was one of my chief complaints about a lot of 3D sonic levels. I'm 100% with you here - I don't like how the theme of 3D sonic levels usually doesn't extend beyond textures and backgrounds. And while you MIGHT be able to make that claim about act 1 for most of the levels in this game, act 2 and act 3 really don't follow that pattern. Without a doubt, you'll see level design themes appear which gives each zone it's own distinctive feel.

These are parts of the level design I don't normally comment on because, for the most part, a general video game fan doesn't examine level design to that degree, nor would most care (I assume). I'm just super analytical about video games (not just sonic) in general.

 

Finally a gameplay video of Eggmanland in the Xbox 360/PS3 version!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dm0VQjAFDFg

 

I suggest that those who haven't seen it, avoid the eggman land video. It was the only level I hadn't seen in the game, and seeing it was kind of a surprise when I got to it. I don't know what I was expecting from it, but it's visual style really surprised me, especially after seeing the rest of unleashed.

 

My god, I need a PS3 right freaking now.... I"m gonna go find stuff to sell on ebay.

OH wow in that Eggmanland level, Sonic DOES transform mid level. He doesn't do that in the PS2 version during an actual level. Just during the little extra parts at the Gaia gates

 

I just noticed that it's a three-part video, so you'll have to wait for the other two parts.

 

I just don't get it! This game (ps3/xbox version) looks awesome, people that have played it say it's awesome, and yet the press just continue to bash it! Can't they just review the game as it is without comparing it to other Sonic games? It's obvious that the team making this wanted it to stand out from the older games, to show people that it is completely different.

Am I right?

 

I was discussing this game on another board. Lemmie show you this exchange:

Thats why. This game just isn't given a chance to exist on it's own merits.

 

You know. I'm going to go ahead and say that this is the best Sonic game since the Genesis days. Certainly the best 3D Sonic to date.

Fuck, they just nailed it.

 

THIS! THIS! A THOUSAND TIMES THIS! I died so many times because of this.

And just FYI, there was 5 werehog acts for Eggmanland. ... but I have to admit that each and every one was full of massive win. Something I was NOT expecting.

 

A toy store broke the street date here in Holland, so I bought it.
The game is great so far.

 

You're completely right. The unfair treatment Unleashed is getting is all due to backlash from the press on comparing it to past games and not juding on what it is alone. It's a huge shame really, and I hope SEGA doesn't take it to heart. The game play for Sonic in this game is perfectly nailed down. I honestly can't see why there's so much complaining about this game.

Werehog aside, this game is probably the best Sonic we've had in a long time.

 

IGN have posted their review 6/10 *sigh*

http://uk.xbox360.ign.com/articles/933/933949p1.html

Although, they do say that it is down the the werehog levels, they do say thet the sonic levels are awesome, its just that the werehog drags the game down.

 

The werehog's grab on the low-end version is actually a little easier to handle than it's made out to be. I figured out that I could just hold down the R1 button when leaping from pole to pole, only letting go of the button for a brief half second as I jump from them. It seems tricky, but it's actually a safe-sure way of making sure that the werehog reaches the ledge nearly all of the time. After I figured this out, I haven't died from missing a ledge or a pole since aside from mistimed jumps. So you basically have to "not panic" when you see that lag in the werehog's grabs and try to press the button again.

Oh and yesterday, I got all S ranks on Sonic's daytime levels. Eggmanland was a bitch.

Also, that's it. I actually love the PS2 version as it is, but my pride won't let me settle for an inferior version of what could possibly be the best 3D Sonic ever (I can't watch videos of Empire City without crying inside; this stage looks absolutely phenomenal). Sonic Unleashed has convinced me to get a PS3 in the future - however, I'm currently looking into what other games I could get so I won't get a system for just one game - I would want at least six other games that interest me on the PS3 before I consider getting one finally. I also don't want to get the system now, since it's astronomically expensive for someone as poor as me.

 

The EU version is out Friday...and if www.gameplay.co.uk do what they usually do with pre-orders, I should get it tomorrow- a day early
If it's as good as you guys are saying I can't wait to get stuck into it...

 

Start with Little Big Planet. The prospect of making your own levels is astounding, and it has some humor in it. You also can make your own mechanisms and traps. Some people have made some amazing creations so far, and you can play them. I'm currently trying to make a legitimate "fake" Sonic the Hedgehog grinding on rails mechanism.

When it comes to Sonic, part 2 of Eggmanland is up. This level is long! Over 20 minutes already. This will be a must-buy for me. Hopefully, the wait for December 12 will be short.

EDIT: All of Eggmanland is up:

Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dm0VQjAFDFg

Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kDQYeip80I

Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2JxhpuQGcs

 

I wish there was a way I could convey "HOLY FUCK, THIS SO HARD" better. Because that game is awesome.

And sackboy makes me laugh my ass off.