Speculations and things I want to straighten out

Okay this topic is in no way supposed to offend anyone and I am not pushing my beliefs on anyone. There's just some things that have come up recently that I either want to straighten out or just give my opinion on. So here goes.

They kind of go hand in hand so what I'll do is present what is considered factual here.

1. The giant emerald in Hidden Palace was nothing more than a breakaway object. This was confirmed by the designer of the level.

2. The desert level in the mock up of Sonic 2 was never called Dust Hill officially. This is true because we have really old concept art that referred to it as "Desert Zone". Brenda Ross, the designer for the level, DID call it Dust Hill in an interview, but she was most likely confused by the many emails she got earlier that referred to the level by that name.
Don't debate this one anymore, you showed me WHY it's not Dust Hill. Thanks.

3. In an interview Yuji Naka said the Hidden Palace was going to be where Sonic learned to go Super... but this is disregarded because Naka most likely said what everyone wanted to hear instead of the truth.

Okay, so these are the three points I want to talk about. If you can't stand someone trying to debate a little bit, back down now, I don't want to be flamed... BUT do feel free to shove facts in my face with a "Nya nya, you suck" if I totally get something wrong.

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Let's talk about number one.

1. I'm not going to argue with this. I consider it 110% fact since the level creator, Craig Stitt (or whatever his name is) said so. Not to mention it just makes sense since Hill Top and Chemical Plant had similar "blocks" over their tubes. When this news was presented, there were a few people here and there that came up with the excuse that it was so long ago that Craig just completely forgot what it was really for. Eventually, the majority of fans just accepted the fact that it was no more than a breakable block, end of story. This is considered fact and anything else is basically just plain wrong.

So the formula seems to be, if the official creator and designer of the level said so, it must be true. Makes sense to me.
Then we move onto number two.

2. IIRC, Brenda Ross' email was posted on some site and she was bombarded with emails asking her about "Dust Hill" so that's why she called it Dust Hill. The zone was never called that, Brenda Ross was simply confused... at least that's what most people say.... I don't get this though.

We take what Craig Stitt said with 100% accuracy, but not what Brenda Ross said? She actually said with complete confidence in the interview that the name of the desert level was Dust Hill. There were a lot of "I thinks" and "It was a while agos" in the interview, but the one thing she did NOT falter on, was the name of the zone. If it was not called Dust Hill she probably would have said, "I don't remember the desert level's name." but the fact that she said it with so much certainty really makes me believe that it was Dust Hill at least at one point.

So we have those concept pictures of "Desert Zone" right? This proves the name was Desert Zone. Well.. no not really since similar pictures of "Cyber City" were released and we know by the time Wai's beta was found that it was changed to "Genocide City."

Also, who first called the level Dust Hill? Where did the name come from? I've been in the community a long time and I'm sure of the fact that no betas were present when the name first came up. So that means there was no Wai beta when the desert zone was ALL READY being called Dust Hill. Whoever first called it Dust Hill had done research and KNEW the name and chances are, what it was intended for.

Now for the fact that Dust Hill leads to Mystic Cave. Well names change in betas. The level select in a beta should never be taken with 100% accuracy. What's the devloper's priority? Get the stage select right or make sure the zone plays well? The most recent betas found have "Sky Fortress" leading to Wing Fortress. I just don't think that the level select should be taken as fact especially when we have developers of the level telling us otherwise.

Now, maybe the slot was there for the real deserty zone and they scrapped it and developed Mystic Cave in that slot. Maybe the desert level somehow evolved into Mystic Cave. I don't know, but I do have doubts that Dust Hill was ALWAYS the same as Mystic Cave. I found this interesting, in an article referring to many of the levels in SOnic 2, BOTH Dust Hill AND Mystic Cave are mentioned:

http://www.sonic-cult.org/imagebin/sgmakingof5.jpg - Here many zones are mentioned including Dust Hill.
http://www.sonic-cult.org/imagebin/sgmakingof6.jpg - Here Mystic (Cave) is mentioned indicating that they were separate zones at one point.

The main problem with this is that it implies that "Dust Hill" was playable at some point and if it was the desert level, we know this can't be true. It does make me wonder if they were given a list of zones or something though.

So this is what we have:

A. Brenda Ross said with complete certainty that the desert zone was called Dust Hill.
B. The name Dust Hill was being used before the Wai prototype was discovered.
C. Dust Hill DOES lead to Mystic Cave but this doesn't prove anything (IE Sky Fortress leads to Wing Fortress ect...)

So I guess the questions are:
Why are people who call the desert level Dust Hill chastised for "falsifying information?" If anything, it's just as false to say with 100% certainty that the desert level was just called "Desert Zone"

Why do we take what Craig Stitt says as completely true when we don't take what Brenda Ross says as true? What's the point of doing interviews if we're just going to pick and choose what we like and come up with excuses for why some information is less or more accurate than the rest.

This brings me to three.

3. The big question is why on earth would Yuji Naka lie about Sonic? I would hope that Naka would love his creation enough to not spread lies about it.

The fact that the Hidden Palace was in Sonic 2 so early on (probably the first zone ever worked on) and so late (wasn't it up to like 38 hours before the final release?) proves that someone sure as hell thought it was important. If it was just a plain old zone, they probably wouldn't have had any trouble scrapping it. But clearly, something was special about this zone that it was with the game for so long. It was even given its own song while Wood Zone and the others never were. This zone was important so I have a hard time believing that it was just an ordinary zone. Something was supposed to happen there and for all we know, it could have been Sonic going Super for the first time.

Again, why interview Naka if we just pick and choose what we like and say "This is fact" and "that is fact" when Naka himself says it is or isn't.

Bottom line of this:
I think interviews should be taken as fact or not, NOT both. I don't think we should go through interviews and say, "Well this is true because so and so isn't but this isn't true because they probably forgot or just lied." Unless people we interview can be proven wrong with 100% certainty, they should be taken as a higher authority than fan speculation

Why? Well let's say this:
10 years ago, I drew a picture of Sonic crying (I didn't really but let's say I did). Someone else sees it (in the current time, IE 10 years later) and says that he's laughing. He says I just simply forgot and you all believe him over me, even though I'm the creator of the picture. Isn't that a bit silly?

As for "Dust Hill" or "Desert Zone"... either both names should be fine or both names should be wrong.

That's all I wanted to say. I'm not trying to force my beliefs on anyone. You are welcome to think as you like, but this is just some stuff that has bothered me for a while. Thanks for reading (please don't trash >_< I worked hard on this)

 

In response to Tweaker: Hmm I didn't know that. I can see what you're saying. If it was nameless at first THEN Dust Hill, it must have evolved into the name Dust Hill.

But consider this:

1. Nameless zone is added to prototype
2. They plan to add Dust Hill to a later prototype so they add the name to the level select
3. They begin it, but it sucks or whatever so they remove it. This results in a glitch in the source code which makes the name "Dust Hill" point to nameless zone. It would make sense since they couldn't completely REMOVE Hidden Palace or else they'd have a similar result.

Just a thought. Probably not true though.

How do they contradict each other? Because the emerald was just a breakable object proves that Sonic wasn't supposed to learn to go super in that level?

 

It's hard to argue with that logic so I won't. It does make me wonder though, why Brenda Ross said it with such certainty. I wonder if it was called Dust Hill at one point and then the name switched to Mystic Cave or whatever.

Not really. There could still be breakable emerald blocks and Sonic could have learned to go Super some other way. Also S3K's HPZ wasn't called HPZ until the very end. Remember that

 

Plus, I didn't want to bring it up but I'll give it a shot, I do remember an interview done with Naka before the game came out. I remember him saying there was a secret in the game that you could unlock. I guess the "secret" could have been Super Sonic, but it's not really a secret when the game outright says "YOU CAN CHANGE INTO SONIC SONIC NOW LOLS!" A hidden level might be a secret though.

...
Now if only I could find that interview ;_;

I do have a question though, is Brenda Ross' entire interview thrown out or just the "Dust Hill" part? I still have problems taking a level select over someone who worked on the level's word but... I can understand how one would come to that conclusion that Dust Hill had always just been Mystic Cave.

 

After reading it... I can see how she'd be influenced to say the desert level was Dust Hill. As I also said though, I don't like the idea of interviewing these people and just deciding what we think is right, especially based on something controversial such as a level select. Level selects have been proven to be inaccurate time and time again.

I'll repeat a hypothetical case:

1. Nameless (which WILL Be Mystic Cave) zone is added to prototype
2. They plan to add Dust Hill to a later prototype so they add the name to the level select
3. They begin Dust Hill/Desert Zone, for whatever reason they remove it completely. This screws up the coding for the game which makes the name "Dust Hill" point to nameless zone. The same effect would have happened if Hidden Palace had been completely removed. The level data would no longer be correct. It's why they didn't completely remove it. Why didn't they change it?

Why would they? It's a level select. The more important thing is that the level worked properly.

Again, it's a THOUGHT on how it could happen. I'm not presenting it as fact, and I can't prove it.

BUT
Because of the Cyber City/Genocide City deal I don't believe the name was going to be just "Desert Zone." A desert zone yes, but saying it was the actual name is as false as saying it's Dust Hill IMO.

Meaning... Brenda Ross vs Craig Stitt or Brenda vs Craig and Yuji Naka or... which?

BTW you said the Post NA Prototype had Mystic Caves but it was unnamed right?... How was it presented in the level select or did it take Green Hill's place?

 

Actually I never thought about it. That makes sense, though. Wood Zone. Desert Zone. They're both boring. So you're saying "Desert Zone" just never got a cool name... or wood zone or whichever. That actually... is a really good point.

Basically it means that if the desert level WAS in the beta, they would have named it "Desert Zone." Wood Zone kinda proved that... thanks for pointing that out.
And I guess my whole thing about them adding the "desert zone" and then deleting it and Dust Hill pointing to Mystic Cave... well then where'd "Desert Zone" go in the level select right?..
EDIT:
err sorry not "Desert Zone" but whatever name was holding Mystic Cave at the time.

I guess the only thing then is:
Why did Brenda say it was Dust Hill? That just bugs me, if she wasn't sure she shouldn't have said it. It's like the ONLY thing in the interview that is said with certainty.

 

Yeah, but still if she wasn't certain, she shouldn't have said it. It's just my stance on it, but I guess she didn't care much. She seemed pissed off about the whole thing anyway (not that I blame her) I'm not trying to argue that it's called Dust Hill anymore, you basically disproved that. It DOES just make me wonder why she'd say something she wasn't sure of, but again, I guess she didn't care.

Oh well thanks for clearing that up. I didn't know about Mystic Cave being nameless and then having the name Dust Hill and I never would have thought of the "Wood Zone" thing. That's how you learn, by asking :P

..

Are we still saying Naka just said what everyone wanted to hear though?