My thought about Hidden Palace Zone

Mr_Boo_Berry · Mar 8, 2008

I've had a thought for several years now, and this may seem like a really stupid thought to some of you, so I apologize in advance. Since we know how to completely reprogram Sonic 2 and add features, characters, levels, and other new things to it, why hasn't somebody ever ported Hidden Palace Zone from the Wai prototype to Sonic 2 final and fixed up all the bugs, added new art to finish parts of the zone, and redo parts of the level to a point where it looks official with a new boss? No other 'hacking' just finish Hidden Palace Zone and having it in the final version of Sonic 2 as originally intended.

The way I see it, the music is there, the level slot is there, and the knowledge is all there in the various guides... so why hasn't anyone considered doing this (as far as I know)? I know something similar has been done in Sonic 2 Delta and whatnot, but not Sonic 2 final. For this reason, I'm considering learning ASM, and attempting it all myself.

Something seemingly so simple and straightforward, and to me a no-brainer, yet something that apparently has never been considered/thought up before. It really boggles my mind.

Discuss.

jman2050 · Mar 8, 2008

I tried this once, but didn't go through with it at the time because I found I would pretty much have to overhaul all the tiles to be able to make a layout that doesn't suck.

I do agree it'd be an interesting exercise though. And wouldn't this suit E&RE better anyway?

Vangar · Mar 8, 2008

It has been done, several times. didn't sonic Delta 2 Have that?

Sonic 2 Delta = Sonic 2 final with hacks btw.

Mr_Boo_Berry · Mar 8, 2008

I'm not talking about Sonic 2 Delta, where it has other levels besides HPZ added. I mean Sonic 2 Final with only HPZ being added as the only modification to the game.

Now, I thought of a clever way of doing it in the way Naka wanted it to be (via his interview). HPZ would be a 1 act level, no boss, and would only be playable during normal gameplay if the player has all 7 chaos emeralds up to that point. If the player has all 7 chaos emeralds, HPZ would appear between MCZ and OOZ, with the ending standing on some alter or fountain or something, and automatically transforming into Super Sonic and zipping off, ending the level.

Corny I know, but I think it'd be pretty neat. Oh yes, if somebody were to access HPZ via level select without all 7 emeralds, well there'd be an alternate ending to the level with no transformation. =P

PsychoSk8r · Mar 8, 2008

King, I'd be willing to attempt this with you. I have a half-decent knowledge of ASM, and it'd be something I'd love to see =P

ICEknight · Mar 8, 2008

King said:

If the player has all 7 chaos emeralds, HPZ would appear between MCZ and OOZ
Click to expand...

Wouldn't it make more sense to make the Hidden Palace appear near the end of the game? ...Or when entering the stars circle after getting the 7th emerald?

Mr_Boo_Berry · Mar 8, 2008

Yeah, you have a point there. I said between MCZ and OOZ because it can transition from cave to a hidden underground palace. I do believe that's the original placement of the level before the level was cut.

Now, me wanting to attempt this or not depends how much ASM knowledge I can acquire (along with the knowledge of the tools to use for such a thing). I'm a complete perfectionist, and it'd have to be perfect with minimal bugs, and like an official release from Sega.

Sik · Mar 8, 2008

In Sonic 3 the Hidden Palace icon appears between Wing Fortress and Death Egg, so I guess it should go there. Maybe Eggman escapes to Hidden Palace and launches the Death Egg from there?

Mr_Boo_Berry · Mar 8, 2008

Well, that really doesn't make much sense, now does it? :P

Sik · Mar 8, 2008

The Death Egg is launched from Hidden Palace in S&K, right?

Mr_Boo_Berry · Mar 8, 2008

Well, both Lava Reef and Hidden Palace. Besides, fuck S3&K's HPZ, it's just a cheap knockoff to satisfy those who saw the Sonic 2 HPZ magazine shots and were disappointed to see it not in the final game. :P Sonic 2's HPZ on the other hand, would make more sense after MCZ.

Sik · Mar 8, 2008

I like more S3K's Hidden Palace :/

Sherbet · Mar 8, 2008

Now, I'd really, really hate to waste a post on something that's stupid, but if the icon takes place between Wing Fortress and Death Egg, perhaps it was meant to be a Tails Level? (Tails gets shot down at the start of Wing Fortress)

It could have, perhaps been a level where Tails does something or another and gets the materials to add a big hunking ROCKET to the Tornado. How he'd get those from Hidden Palace is beyond me, though.

The only problem with this theory is:

The Tails 1UP Monitor was just a result of transition from Sonic 1 to Sonic 2's Monitor Mapping.

Still, the placement may be completely irrelevant, really.

Tweaker · Mar 8, 2008

I was about to come in and debunk that, but it could make sense to a point... The only issue is that, of course, Naka said that it was where Sonic would be granted his Super form, so that throws that out the window. :P

And yeah, the Tails monitor has been proven to have absolutely no significance whatsoever. I think it might even be the monitor that pops up in two-player mode, adding a life to Tails' life counter. That's why it's in the monitor selection in the first place—the random monitor in two-player mode just randomly spawns a subtype within a specified range. In order for it to randomly give Tails a 1up, there would have to be another subtype to do just that.

Has anyone checked to see if the Tails monitor in Sonic 2 Final actually adds to Tails' 1up variable? That would solve that mystery for good (and explain why Sonic doesn't get a 1up if you hit it).

FraGag · Mar 8, 2008

IIRC, in Sonic 2 Final, Sonic gets the life when getting the Tails 1-UP monitor (in 1P mode).

However, what happens internally to the Sonic 1-UP monitors when playing as Tails? Does the subtype actually change?

Sherbet · Mar 8, 2008

Hidden Palace Final

No, it likely acts just like it does in two-player mode, granting an extra life only to Tails.

Sik · Mar 8, 2008

FraGag said:

IIRC, in Sonic 2 Final, Sonic gets the life when getting the Tails 1-UP monitor (in 1P mode).
Click to expand...

No, that's Wai's beta.

Tweaker said:

I was about to come in and debunk that, but it could make sense to a point... The only issue is that, of course, Naka said that it was where Sonic would be granted his Super form, so that throws that out the window. :P
Click to expand...

You gave me an idea for another theory: Eggman goes away to the Death Egg. The Wing Fortress falls or something and Sonic falls into Hidden Palace. He becomes Super and then flies to the Death Egg. Does it make sense?

Overlord · Mar 9, 2008

King said:

Yeah, you have a point there. I said between MCZ and OOZ because it can transition from cave to a hidden underground palace. I do believe that's the original placement of the level before the level was cut.

Now, me wanting to attempt this or not depends how much ASM knowledge I can acquire (along with the knowledge of the tools to use for such a thing). I'm a complete perfectionist, and it'd have to be perfect with minimal bugs, and like an official release from Sega.
Click to expand...

Well, I'm no ASM expert, but really all the pseudocode you'd need for this (assuming you'd already finished off the HPZ level) isn't terribly complex...

Code (Text):

(a)

onStarPostPassed:

if (starPostRingsEntered) && (emeraldCount == 7) { loadLevel("HPZ"); }

(b)

onDoubleJump:

if (rings == 50) && (emeraldCount == 7) && (beenToHPZ == true) { superSonic(); }

(c)

if (playerAtEndOfHPZ) { beenToHPZ = true; }

=P

ICEknight · Mar 9, 2008

Sik the hedgehog said:

You gave me an idea for another theory: Eggman goes away to the Death Egg. The Wing Fortress falls or something and Sonic falls into Hidden Palace. He becomes Super and then flies to the Death Egg. Does it make sense?
Click to expand...

Yeah, it could make some sense... And the game would show the bad ending right after Wing Fortress, if you didn't have all the emeralds.

Who knows, really. But it would be interesting to check for any alternate cutscenes buried within Beta 4's code.

Vangar · Mar 10, 2008

There could be heaps of different theories for that transition. Sonic could fall off when he is hanging on the ship and falls into hidden palace. Sonic could misjump and fall in there. Robotnik might fly there rather then flying to DEZ. We just have 0 guides for this idea :P

My thought about Hidden Palace Zone

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