Just in time for Legends too. I do think the Sonic Adventures are overrated amongst newer Sonic fans, as they were buggy on release, and less... polished experiences than 3D platformers even a generation earlier (Mario 64, DK64, Banjo, Crash, Spyro etc). However there must be something in them that people enjoyed more than the Boost formula (my preference for 3D) or the Frontiers formula, which seems to have had a broader appeal, and I dont want to dimiss it as simply nostalgia. However Im unsure what it is, the slightly freer controls and the slightly more open level design that affords? But if that were the case than Frontiers would appeal to them more. The high character count cant be it, as most people only reference the Sonic/Shadow/Tails in SA1 level design as their preference, and Heroes was a character smorgasboard. If Sonic 06 had the same polish as say Unleashed, would it have been a better experience with the level design and character control being more akin to Adventure? The Project 06 fans are seeming to lean that way.
Mania is the closest, but even that game has caveats that other people have pointed out (the lack of original levels, the boss fights, for instance). But there is not a single 3D Sonic game I can call good without caveats. Not even Generations, a game I literally couldn't finish because the game just started crashing on start for me one day and I was already feeling pretty lukewarm about due to literally half of it feeling unbelievably jank. Hell, S3&K is buggy. The game as originally released is so buggy the manual calls it out. Sonic is absolutely not a series that we can point at for "caveat-less" games.
The only perfect Sonic game is Sonic Eraser. Sonic Spinball is close to perfection though, the only thing it needs is for every piece of music to be the options theme. That shit slaps.
I'd say, any caveats aside, Frontiers is a great game in my opinion. I do have some nitpicks but it's the most fun I've had with a Sonic game since Mania and is the most fun I've had with a 3D Sonic game period. It has wonderful music, too. Obviously, everyone's milage may vary. I've noticed different generations of Sonic fans seem to fall into specific camps of fans but I could be mistaken. For me, being there since the first game, speed never seemed to be what Sonic was about. That was just a character attribute. He was fast, sure, but that wasn't the point of the first game for me. It was all about exploration and finding hidden things. That's why I fell in love with the original game and the series and possibly why I prefer Sonic CD and Sonic 3 & Knuckles over Sonic 2. As the Mega Drive games gave way to the Dreamcast era and beyond, I think a small generational shift occured. Some newer fans enjoyed it more for story elements and the different characters as well as the speed. I could be wrong. There are a lot of people who love the rail grinding, boost gameplay, and homing attacks. Then, there are people like me who think it subtracts from the overall experience. Frontiers does have all of that but it's the first time I've not been too bothered by it in a 3D Sonic game. If that makes sense. I think the ‘open zone’ gameplay gels well with some of those gimmicks to a point. I still would prefer no boost unless it's a special ability (Super Sonic I'm looking at you) and homing attacks relegated to something that's not meant to guide you along (the Utopia fan game handled it well).
It is revisionism and I'm quite tired of it. Everything @MH MD said is correct. People speak about Colors and Generations nowadays as if people only liked those games because they were functional and had very low standards when that just isn't true. People liked the games because they were fun and had excellent presentation. They didn't care that much that they were not deep. @MH MD is also correct that Colors Ultimate doing so well in reviews considering it is a 10 year old remaster is impressive, but he'll undoubtedly get ignored because what he's pointing out doesn't fit people's narratives. Colors was a popular game and remains popular.
Wha where did revisionism come into the discussion I like Colors a lot but I don't exactly see the revisionism in @Blue Blood's post, all he really said was that he doesn't like the game and that the game isn't as popular as it used to be. If he had said "Colors was never popular, it was always controversial" then I'd understand the revisionism complaints but you cannot deny that Colors isn't as universally praised as it used to be among fans. Funny enough I disagree with pretty much all of his points but like I just don't get where this discussion even came from I'm confused
I don't disagree at all with your conclusion. I like Colors and pointed out that people still hold it in high regard a couple days ago. I just don't agree that someone saying it wasn't as good as people remembered it is "revisionism". That's just a personal opinion. He admittedly uses some kind of dumb reasoning for it, but I still don't think that could be considered "revisionism" to just have an opinion like that.
I rarely see people say stuff like that about Generations though? And to a lot of people, Colors is seen as the start of the era that Frontiers is apparently trying to fix. I know people liked Colors but I'm hard pressed to find it in people's favorites very often. My first playthrough of Colors I liked it a good bit, but I was kind of turned off by the writing direction, VA cast change, as well as the more Mario-y design philosophy. I could tell it was a quality experience but it missed a lot of marks that mattered for me. It's one of the few Sonic games I don't really like to revisit. I don't doubt it's quality as a game at all. I don't think it's particularly amazing, but it was worth the money at the time (Colors Ultimate on the other hand...). I just never really talked much about it because it didn't seem like it was going to be a problem for me until it was. What seemed like a refreshing change of pace ended up being the norm for years to come. Only with less and less quality. So I don't think there is revisionism, some of us have just been stirred to the point of piping up about it. As for Kishimoto, I've met him in person and he seems to be a great guy. Very friendly and willing to talk with fans that approach him. I'm not sure who's the one to be pointing fingers at because you see projects like 06, Sonic Boom, TSR, Colors Ultimate, Sonic Origins... Hell, even Mania seems to be tainted by some higher power at SEGA that doesn't seem to be Iizuka or Kishimoto. While I don't think Kishimoto is particularly amazing with his approach, there certainly is something complex going on with how SEGA manages Sonic projects. Perhaps I'm wrong, but unless confirmed by someone who works there, it's just speculation.
If you just wanted an arcade y platformer with good vibes then Colors hit the spot, and that's all most casual players wanted from Sonic at the time. There's a hardcore base that are into the series for the story and characters that never cared for this game, but they've always been around. I have my own theories about why it's hit a bit of a sour spot in the fanbase though. Sonic Colors drops a lot of 3D Sonic baggage and takes a step toward something more classic, but it's not enough of a commitment to really capture that audience beyond a nod of approval. I liked the game when it came out, but as time went on I kept finding myself choosing other Sonic games over it instead of revisiting it. Despite a lot of the directional changes being sensible the execution was lame. A focus on platforming is a good thing but Sonic level design has never been this rigid and inflexible as far as what you can actually do with it. I like the idea of a comedy focused Sonic game but it's all entirely dialogue driven when that's never been the series's strong suit. The jokes are really, really fucking lame. Humor is subjective and all but I've never even seen people who like this game recall their favorite gags. That shit really is insufferable, just as bad as the worst dark age scripts even if the "tone" is correct. Like yeah good job actually making a platformer but I DKCR like a day after this game game out and it erased it from my rotation. It ultimately can't hang with the greats, and that includes other Sonic games that I have easy access to. the classic games are titles I revisit to this day, but with Sonic Colors still being as rigid and automated as the 3D games before it I didn't have a reason to revisit it. Like good job scaring the adventure fans away but as long as the mechanics are still lame you aren't winning classic fans back either. It's an awkward middle ground that pleases nobody, especially now that Mania is out and we actually have a fully fleshed out 2D game with insanely good level design and a fun, bright tone to play with. You could say Colors was a step in the right direction, but I would rather them figure out what direction to go between games and come out with something fully fleshed out, not pay 60 bucks for Sonic Team to feel things out. Lost World basically dropping everything this game did right and tripling down on the shitty jokes and stuff gameplay basically doomed it as a direction for the series. Sonic Colors became associated with shitty jokes, anemic amounts of content and rigid game mechanics. It's not really fair to Sonic Colors, but that game isn't good enough on its own merits for me to be torn up about it.
You have to wonder how much our homegrown Director of Strategy, Studio & Community Relations for SEGA Japan facilitated this kind of frankness.
"Bucket O' Sushi - Now With Real Fish!" got a chuckle out of me, as well as Tails' "His cruelty knows no bounds," remark when he went to give it a try. Baldy Nosehair/McNosehair was funny at the time but it got old fast.
I only see Kishimoto's activity online as just transparency, and not much more. I really love to see it, i wish all developers could be open about their process and thoughts when it comes to game development, rather than having to wait like decades until someone uncovers something or some developer starts talking about it, but really doesn't mean that sonic team are definitely going to deliver us gems. I don't think Kishimoto going around online reading and considering ideas is exclusive to him, we just rarely see it like this, especially from developers working on franchises and projects by big companies. Another thing i like about it is that this kinda puts the "Sonic Team just doesn't care" argument to rest, cause like, they do care, they clearly do.
The "revisionism" argument fails because it implies that the impressions people are taking or offering on a game are changing intentionally. People can say "oh it was always XYZ" if they want, but obviously something is different or else there wouldn't be a really big discussion about that difference. Sonic 2 and 3 are still good, there isn't a lot of dissent there. Colors worked because it was what a lot of general audiences needed from Sonic at the time that it came out. It was focused, it was polished, and it left a lot of the weird dumb elements of the series behind. Divorced from that context, simply put alongside every other Sonic game, it's not particularly special, occupying a spot like Rush Adventure or Advance 2 or somesuch of "basically an okay followup to a bunch of elements established by a previous game". I still think it's good, but it makes sense that when it's in that "not special" context, people would start to view it through the lens of the elements other less-popular games took from it. Frontiers, similarly, is a game that's not amazing or even necessarily a trailblazer for Sonic as a property, but it's what the current younger section of the fandom needed (and the gaming populace was willing to tolerate); a game that takes itself earnestly, leans into the anime overtones, kinda feels like Sonic Adventure sometimes, and is long enough to leave an impression. I have no doubt there will be people ragging on it in a couple years, just like every other Sonic game that isn't an all time great does; we'll see if that's because we get crappier games accentuating Frontiers' flaws or just a general distaste for the style, but I'm sure people who don't like it right now will find things to appreciate it the same way they did Unleashed (I know this because Unleashed is literally just not a good game at all and everyone likes it now for some fucking reason). Personally, unless something goes wrong during development, I think whatever Sonic Team puts out next will probably be better than Frontiers, the same way Colors was better than Unleashed and Generations was better than Colors. Whether we get a Lost World "throw out all your shit and have to redevelop it over the next decade" moment after that...well, I hope not.
I see Colors in a similar way a lot of Fire Emblem fans are currently looking at the latest title, Engage. Its a step back from the previous entry being more character and story focused in favor of a more lighthearted and straightforward narrative, but focuses more on expanding the existing gameplay. Fans of the former are vocally upset but gameplay purists and casuals ate it up. Except imagine if Engage was the standard going forward and the gameplay gradually got worse while doubling down on the lighthearted tone. Sure Colors itself isn't bad, but the fact that it set the standard for the next decade only doomed it among the hard-core crowd. I can honestly see Frontiers suffering a similar fate if Sonic Team don't make any meaningful gameplay improvements and just double down on the superficial traits that only matter to the hard-core fans. And history has taught me that is a likely occurrence.
I don’t even see how Colors is comparable. It’s basically 80% a 2D block platformer and 20% running in a straight line, jolting 5 inches left or right every few seconds. It is the quintessential, safest, strip-everything-down and trim-the-fat affair you can possibly have. Frontiers is basically 90% a 3D platformer with 10% agonizing 2D sections sprinkled in. But at least it has depth. It doesn’t always land, but at least they’re trying. If you ask me, Colors got all the glory back in the day because it didn’t do anything overtly and shockingly wrong. No melodramatic human princess kissing, no werehog, just back to basics Sonic VS Eggman in a man vs nature showdown. As time goes on, I don’t think it’s difficult to look back on Colors and see it for what it is- nothing special. Also I can only describe this feeling of watching certain present company be reminded of such masterful quips like “Baldy McNosehair” and still having the gaul to call Ian Flynn’s writing worse as pure, unfiltered perplexion.
I'm gonna be honest bro, I think it makes perfect sense that you can't meaningfully compare Colors and Frontiers if you're going to describe the former that uncharitably.
Sonic Colours is still my favourite 3D Sonic game, and favourite overall bar Sonic 3 & Knuckles. I definitely fall into the "gameplay purist" camp; I complained about the autoscroller sections at the time as being the worst part of Unleashed and wondering why they came back, and some of the gimmick stages overstay their welcome, but outside of those I found it a thoroughly engaging platformer with the wisps adding a lot of depth to the game for both exploration and score attacking. It sticks to the same gameplay all the way through, with optional extra stages earned via red rings, which are also great for score attacking, and at the end of it all Super Sonic, done exactly as Super Sonic should be, to a degree no 3D game has been able to replicate. Egg Shuttle also helps immensely with just getting on and actually playing the game. It never interrupts you with "time to do After Burner but with no stakes" or "now play as Knuckles and find the hidden bum fluff" or "5 minutes of QTEs", and doesn't make you bash the attack button for five minutes because an enemy has 1848HP for some reason. It's relatively glitch-free, with the whole "3D in 2D" thing being something you have to actually try to do. Also it looks great and has a banger of a soundtrack. Story and writing was a refreshing change at the time but when I replayed it in Ultimate I was in physical pain. So -0.01% for that, since that's how much the story matters to a platformer. Now if only the stages were more like Unleashed's, but without the autoscroller sections... shame they never went in that direction.
