The Sonic Frontiers *SPOILER* Thread (With Unmarked Spoilers)

There was a Sonic game every year from 05-11. They were not given the luxury of long dev cycles of Forces and especially this game.

Just slow down with the Sonic games! is a thought that many had.
Now that they did...and the results are what they are...I'm just stumped. But at least not frustrated, which perhaps just means that I don't care anymore

 

Forces didn't have a long development cycle, though. It had the same amount of time to actually be made like the other game (1~2 years)

Frontiers had a longer development cycle, but it would have been cut short if Iizuka didn't fight to get a delay, development was struck with COVID, and the game still came out much better than at least 7/9 of the games you mentioned (and I'm still struggling to see how it's less "trying something different" than Generations). I guess that doesn't deserve "sympathy," but yeah.

 

Is it possible that the game isn't complete?
As in potential DLC content after release...
It kinda seems like it isn't fully finished ^^"

 

That's typically not Sonic Team's MO.

God knows why they didn't make DLC with the game that's perfect for DLC (Generations).

 

Stating the game was hit with COVID as a statement of why the game looks the way it does feels disingenuous as hell when Iizuka already dismissed the pandemic as a major setback for the game.

In contrast they have been very open with the amount of times they had to alter the game to accommodate player feedback. You could say that those extended years were just fighting to salvage a 2 year dev game from player reception, and that was an indirect form of crunch that kept the scope of the game limited to what was initially planned, but that still doesn't reflect on a 5 year dev time as well as it should.

Sonic Team had time to develop the game this time, even last year where the reason for delay was focused entirely on quality after having the structure of the game down. Attempting to frame it as exclusively a SEGA problem is a far reach in light of that transparency and deadline extension.

 

The quote explicitly says that COVID had an impact, just a significantly less impactful than it would have been since they switched early and quickly.

On the subject of the idea that they had the full five years to make the game, Iizuka also stated that they had to scrap their original concept of a capital-W Open World and start entirely from scratch.

The quote also implies that the builds they scrapped were internally tested, and not externally playtested like the final game (since playtesters leaks are pretty consistent about details). Leaks show that the exact concept of the game we have now was in development since at least 2019.

Sonic Team has had 2-3 years to make a game around a whole new concept, something they struggled to jive with. Longer than most games, a more consistent vision, but still not an easy time.

But ultimately, time isn't really the reason why an entire segment of the game is made from reused assets and reused level design. That's a decision they intentionally made for a reason. The part about "usually when we're making a Sonic game..." is interesting in this context.

I would agree that the game would not have more original levels if it was delayed until 2024, or something. I think it is a case of them not having the resources to go all the way.

Though, as much as I like the game now... it definitely needed that delay.

 

After listening and reading a lot of interviews with Mr. iizuka I firmly believe sonic team has the same identity crisis over what even is a sonic game that the fans constantly fight about all the time. Something screams to me they just can’t find a formula that fits what they are expecting which results in them just cobbling things together that worked in the past mixed in with a few new ideas, instead of just going all in on a singular idea and making it the best possible. That is how it feels to me anyways. Which could explain why we keep getting assets from the same zones, because it worked in the past right?

 

I apologize.

 

Here is further clarification from a 2021 interview on Sonic Stadium:

It is "an impact", but "many days" of shipping hardware does not translate to a quantifiable one in the span of 5 years of development. Again, you're bringing it up as a point to be outright sympathetic towards the development process, which would otherwise rely on how little we know about how bad it was for how it interfered with the development process, but Iizuka's statements always veered on the side of it being a minor obstacle that came before running smoothly again.


There are a lot more details on Frontiers' development regarding when external testing started, what builds were tested on, what changes were made over time and considered at different points, etc., but I'm specifically referring to the COVID angle here. It's the only one I can address without cluttering a post with several block quotes of translated and untranslated Japanese interview quotes lol

 

Fair enough then.

 

Not to disagree with anyone, but wasn't it explicitly stated that the game missed a 2021 release window on a financial report earlier this year? Unless Iizuka is referring to a delay specifically caused by the impact of COVID during the interview.

 

Yep

https://www.segasammy.co.jp/english...ent/2022/managementmtg_main_qa_20211224_e.pdf

If Covid was the reason, they could have easily (and more importantly accurately) cited issues related to the pandemic to explain the delay.

 

So…. Is the game any good? I played a tiny bit on emulator and thought it was fun. Had to stop eventually cause I can’t run Ryujinx very well, but I liked it nonetheless. Cyberspace is a lot of fun too, it plays much better than I expected.

 

I think it's good, and if you like Cyber Space early on, it'll stay good.

 

The amount of variety or creativity in Sonic’s worlds is one of the main things that sold this series for so many people. The characters are fun and cool to look at, but it’s not just that, it’s where their adventures lead them and what insane stuff they run into next. The sheer scale, excitement, appeal of rushing through these zones are maybe a greater contributor to the series’s personality than the characters themselves.

With that in mind, it now makes sense why out of all things the enemies are the focus of this game: there’s basically none of what I mentioned to speak of. For a gameplay style made to emphasize the sense of adventure, we have some of the least adventurous stuff I’ve ever seen from Sonic: a total of three biomes and four kinds of cyberspace stage templates is where it caps out. Of those three biomes, no real difference in besides what the ground is made of (grass, sand or rock) and the first of them (grass) taking up three out of five "zones", which is insane. And of those four cyberspace stage templates, only one isn't based on a pre-existing game's assets.

I watched a friend play through Generations last night and was wowed in remembering just how much effort went into creating those levels. Not only how vibrant and full of life they came off in design, but the craftsmanship in how well modeled it was. I know it was the buzz-phrase back when Unleashed came out, but it really does look on par with Pixar films of the day; not just in the level of detail or quality of the lighting, but the artistry in how things were designed. Chock full with setpieces as far as the eye could see and constantly introducing new ideas, sometimes going off the rails to defy and bewilder your expectations. Every corridor and open space was designed with a sense of visual purpose, even if not gameplay oriented.

And that was on a 1.5 year development cycle.

Eleven years later on a game with five years in the oven, Sonic Team can't even seem to make three (three!) maps have anything distinct or meaningful to how they look or feel. I know what you're going to say, "it's the game's art style", and I don't really care. It's nothing if only the same ruins sitting in a different set of valleys, mountains and canyons with a similar amount of empty, lifeless space and washed out color. Somehow, Sonic 06 walks out of a comparison as the game with more exciting, more interesting, more "Sonic" environments. You let Sonic 06 win. You don't let Sonic 06 win!

Someone's gotta give Sonic Team some more staff because sixty people ain't enough to reach their ambitions. And when we get it staffed good, we need some new people at the head. I don't know 100% what's happened over there, but I do know their old talent is gone, and whatever's left is just.. not doing too hot (and haven't been, if Forces is what's to go by). This game is the opposite of a treat as far as not only how it looks, but how much content there actually is, and when you have people saying "it's the best 3D Sonic game since Generations" it only reminds me of how bad we've got it now. Christ.

 

It looks good but the disappointing aspect of the game that was revealed may spark up very annoying controversy

 

Yeah this is how I feel.

Sonic Team has been whoring out their old Unleashed/Colors/Generations assets for a DECADE at this point. They barely made any new ones for Forces and even those heavily reuse crap. I have been waiting for literally a decade for them to create something new.

And they have. And it's three generic biomes that have absolutely zero Sonic style or flair. Incredible.

Oh and we also have some crappy boost levels that yet again whore out assets literally a decade old at this point.

Jesus christ. I am full on joker mode at this point. Why is this team incapable of making anything that carries forth the style and flair of even the Adventure era? For all the criticism of that era, at least it made new stuff. Even 06's misguided obsession with realism got us locales like Crisis City, Aquatic Base, and Kingdom Valley.

Has any other dev team for a Sonic as well-known and big as Sonic ever been this immensely navel-gazing? Why can't this team make something new that still manages to capture the clear essence of what Sonic is? Because these islands are not it.

Christ almighty: they're recycling level designs now. Fuck, I can't even think of another dev that could do that and get away with it.

I fully now understand how classic fans felt in the mid-2000's. Christ.

 

This game is definitely gonna be super polarizing in the fanbase for years to come.

That said, I'd say the overall package is still good. It could certainly be BETTER, but I can see they did do the best they could possibly do with the resources they had (and yes that is sad)

But there's enough here to satisfy all but the most obsessive, dogged, and stubborn Sonic fan. And yes, that makes up a lot of the vocal crowd unfortunately so you're likely going to be hearing a lot from them.

So all I can say is that if you're looking a Sonic game that will satisfy all of your ideals, this ain't it. It is however still a good time if you just wanna sit down and play a good game. It has a lot very cool and over the top moments that I've missed and I appreciate that.

Anyone who comes out disappointed then feel free to tear thr game a new one. I liked it and that's all that matters to me even if I acknowledge it could have been so much more.

 

I do think we have to be careful when thinking about development time.

On an artistic level, having more time to do something doesn't mean it will necessarily be better. Laura Nyro's Eli and the Thirteenth Confession is generally regarded as a groundbreaking album but she hated working on it because she felt rushed and worked to a deadline. When she did have ample time to work later in her career, she'd take tens of takes and her albums fell flat. Sometimes having less time makes you more focused and puts pressure on you, which can ironically make the work better.

In the world of games, there's loads of great rushed games. Majora's Mask is a classic but was rushed. Even in Sonic we have examples. Both Sonic 2 and Sonic 3 were rushed and they are high points of the series. So while it's true that Sonic turned out rushed disasters like Sonic 06, it's not like a lack of development time has always been a hindrance.

There are also mediocre games which are given ample development time. I don't mind Halo Infinite but I think it's definitely not an amazing time but it did receive a very long development cycle. It even received an extra year for polish. There are many Sonic games which had good development time which turned out average or subpar. Don't see many people singing the praises of Sonic Heroes for having a good development time!

Also, I'm not a game developer but even I know that some people are not understanding how game development works. Testing out game concept ideas takes up a substantial part of game development. We know with leaks and interviews with Iizuka that Frontiers went through a rigorous playtesting schedule while undergoing concept development. Not at all unusual. We know Team Sonic Racing went through something similar because of the public presentation they gave of the game's development pre-release. Off the top of my head, Jak 2 developers have said similar things about that game.

TL;DR. Games which are rushed can be terrible and games can benefit from long development times. But not always the case.