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The Sonic Frontiers *SPOILER* Thread (With Unmarked Spoilers)

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by MykonosFan, Sep 29, 2022.

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  1. DefinitiveDubs

    DefinitiveDubs

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    It's one thing to call out actual misinformation and lies. It's another thing to call what is clearly an opinion to be misinformation and a lie, which I see so much of right not only on social media, but right now in this very thread. Every time, every single fucking time that someone, god forbid, says something that can be interpreted as negative about the latest Sonic game, even if what they said is a literal fact, their statement has to be shot down by someone who talks down to them like they're an idiot. Every time someone says something negative, they're accused of "wanting to see flaws" or "wanting to make the game look bad" as if anyone out here is twirling their mustache as they initiate their master plan to destroy the credibility of Sonic the fucking Hedgehog. The vast majority of people I see who are pointing out what they see to be flaws are not, in fact, acting out of some grand conspiracy to destroy the Sonic brand.

    Legitimate negative opinions apparently have to also include something positive or otherwise be worded in a way that's overly nuanced and "respectful" because oh man, what if someone is passionate about this series enough to get angry about it? Can't have that. Better be a passive aggressive asshole towards that person as if they just said something racist.

    Some people see this game as a disappointment. For some, it's a major disappointment. And that's ok. That's valid. It's not something that requires a knight in shining armor to bust through the window, dagger in their teeth, shouting "But what about X franchise?! It does the same thing!!"

    I also highly disagree that we should give Sonic games a bit of slack because they're "hard to make". This game, this artistic work, is going to last. So why not do everything to ensure as little compromises as possible? Are developers going to tell everybody who ever bought the game "It was really difficult so expect some compromises?" Are the press or Youtubers who review this game going to say "Overall I didn't like it but I understand it was hard to make so I'll give it a pass"? No. The audience sees it and says "good game" or "bad game". That's all (paraphrasing what Jackie Chan once said about films. The same philosophy should apply here). All that matters is the final product that is in the buyer's hands. They're not going to care how chaotic its development was. Why should they?

    I'm not even sure if I'm making sense tbh. Sonic does weird, toxic things to the brain.
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2022
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  2. Childish

    Childish

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    I find it hard to believe that it exactly the same layout, where did ya get this from? I find it more likely that you ulock that extra area on kronos and there's some story thing there. Duping an entire island just with a tiny extra bit seems stupid.
     
  3. The Deleter

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    [​IMG]

    It's the same pyramid that was shown in the original Kronos island flyover; the same pyramid that has been missing from the overworld map's skyline ever since the reveal trailer:

    [​IMG]
     
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  4. Sneekie

    Sneekie

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    Why, and what reason is there, to assume they didn't do everything to ensure as little compromises as possible?

    That is what they did, though. Sonic Team talked extensively about the troubles they faced in development. How COVID made development harder. How they had to fight to get Sega to delay the game for polish. How they crunched nights in Tokyo to finish the game. How they worked until the deadline for going gold and still couldn't address all of the feedback from players.

    They're not asking for people to go easy on them ("please give us a high score, we worked really really hard!").

    But they were absolutely clear that it was not an easy time. Most people seem to be sympathetic to that, and point the blame, if any, to Sega of Japan. Some are even realizing that they may in fact be the problem this whole time, especially over the Origins debacle.

    A lot of developers talk about this. It is good that people talk about this. It is very important to know, for many reasons, even if none make the product better.

    Because chaotic development, like poor budget, poor management, and crunching developers, is a direct result of many games, especially Sonic games, being bad?

    Also, no one said anything about "chaotic development." I simply said making [Sonic] games is hard. It's not always the result of crunch. Though it's interesting you imagined that Sonic Team did go through absolute hell making the game anyway.

    As stated above, you're already assuming that the game's flaws is because they didn't care to make it better ("So why not do everything to ensure as little compromises as possible?"), so you do care about how the game came out the way they did.

    You have no responsibility for how poorly Sega treats Sonic Team, nor do you have to like the results of their product, but it's not an attack on you to point out that Iizuka probably didn't twirl his mustache and put Green Hill in the game, anticipating your suffering over checkerboard hills.

    Personally, I don't think "the only thing that matters about art is how it works as a product" is a particularly artistic stance. I'll insist that '06 is pretty bad even on a fundamental level, but I also completely understand why it is the way it is. If someone told me "'06 is bad because of a horrible development," I won't think "oh, well I like it now," but it's absolutely the truth.

    I'll definitely be the knight with the dagger in their mouth in this case, lol.
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2022
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  5. I'm not even saying should go easy on them. Absolutely tear the game apart because you have to judge the end product at the end of the day.

    But don't do shit like say the devs lied or they didn't care because they made a hyperbolic statement that didn't align exactly with your expectations, that is a bad faith argument to the T.

    Its not white knighting, its called not being a dick. Yes I know we don't owe anything to thr devs, but don't start acting like Pokemon fans start rioting over shit and making an ass out of yourself
     
  6. Childish

    Childish

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    well that sucks
     
  7. Trippled

    Trippled

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    Uh, aren't you missing Chu-nan from Unleashed? It has 9 areas. And the levels taken from other games are straight up made worse.

    It's just dissapointing that they did things better years ago. No way around it.
     
  8. Frostav

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    Acting like Spagonia and Empire City are similar because they happen to be urban environments while completely ignoring that one is a rustic Mediterranean city and the other a modern American urban jungle of skyscrapers is the definition of disingenuous.

    That is honestly like saying Mazuri and Shamar are the same because they have sand, or Adabat and Apotos are similar because they're coastal water levels.
     
  9. Sneekie

    Sneekie

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    I did, actually! And it's also a pretty original theme too.

    It's especially easy to think that way playing the SD version, where you only have Mazuri as a boss, though that's ultimately unfair. But their Night stages are still remarkably similar.

    I also grouped Kronos Island and Green Hill together, despite the former being a moody, grassy, forested island, and the latter... Green Hill. Spagonia and Empire City carry the trope of being a city. It wasn't about how physically distinct they are, it's about the trope.

    Speed Highway, City Escape, Crisis City, and Rooftop Run are all distinct city levels, but they're still city levels, and I recall people complaining about 4/9 stages in Generations being cities.

    Not sure people would be running to Frontiers if it had three extra themes and they were also all cities.
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2022
  10. Trippled

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    Remember how the 6th world in Lost World was just the 1st world but just in the sky. Getting same vibes with this tbh.

    I think a big thing with modders will be applying new facelifts to the thing. Heck I recall people already doing this when the whole thing got revealed.
     
  11. Patrolman

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    There has to be a story reason for this
     
  12. Sneekie

    Sneekie

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    I wanna say that Sky Road is admittedly better than this, but also that "[Windy Hill] but in the sky" also just describes Windy Hill lmao

    Oh, the modding scene for this game will be absolutely amazing. Bigger than even Generations. All the themes, all the levels, all sorts of controls...
     
  13. DefinitiveDubs

    DefinitiveDubs

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    Yes, it is very important. It is very good that people talk about this. Crunch culture is bad. I get that. But if you're letting that color your opinion to the point where you want to buy it just to "show your support", then you actually are giving companies even more of an incentive to continue those kinds of practices. Because that means they can just say
    [​IMG]
    And fans will respond with "That's ok! You worked hard!" and the cycle continues. Maybe you'll still blame corporate, but you still bought it, so they're not going to care. But you don't want to boycott, because those poor developers will suffer even more! Well, better get used to it then.
    It's a result of a lot of games being bad. But those other games usually find ways to mitigate these problems. If they make a game that isn't up to snuff, they punch back with one that is. If they don't have the budget for their vision, they cut back and polish what they have. If they need more time for the next big entry, they fill the void with smaller, spinoff projects that can be handled by different developers, or remasters/remakes. The Sonic franchise does not do these things...at least, not anymore. There was a time when it did. Sonic 2 scaled back massively from what it was supposed to be and ended up a great game. Dimps was pumping out decent-to-great Sonic games inbetween the big AAA releases. But I can't think of a single franchise that has consistently missed the mark with the big AAA releases as often as Sonic has, and just as consistently not manage to make up for it later.
    If making Sonic games is so hard, then why have so many fans been putting out tons of quality platformers, for free, for decades? Are you telling me that making Sonic games is easy for a fan working out of their mom's basement, but hard for seasoned, college-educated, paid game developers, working at one of the biggest and most prestigious gaming companies in Japan? Even if we limit it to just 3D games, the fact is the only reason making Sonic games is "hard" is because of Kishimoto and Iizuka's philosophy of constantly pushing the envelope and always wanting to redefine what a Sonic game "is". If they wanted to, they could go full Mega Man and pump out safe, iterative entries that use the same tried and true formula that fangames have always used (something I honestly wouldn't mind at this point). The problem of Sonic games being "hard" is a problem that they themselves created.
    False equivalence. You can care and still drop the ball. There are plenty of situations in life that everyone deals with where they wanted what they did/made to be better, and they did care about it being as good as possible, and yet they still hide behind excuses that the audience doesn't care about, like "oh, we didn't have enough money" or "oh, we didn't have time". How many times have you skimped on doing homework for a class because you were mentally or physically drained? But you obviously care about your grades. You care about your education, don't you? Except that your homework typically only affects you. When your homework affects you, and is also looked at by everyone else, and it also costs $60 to view, in an economy that's royally fucked up its ass, suddenly you have a situation where your exhaustion shouldn't matter as much as the final product you deliver.

    I may "understand" when Amazon fails to deliver my package, or said package ends up broken and/or tampered with, because working in an Amazon warehouse is actual hell. I may "understand" when my food is cold, because waitresses are underpaid and overworked. That doesn't mean I'm not going to be annoyed. I'm still going to talk about my shitty experience. So believe me, I "understand" that Sonic Team went through hell to deliver this game. But that doesn't really matter to me. If I think the game is a disappointment, I'm going to say it just like that: that it is a disappointment, and that Sega/Sonic Team dropped the ball, with no preface about the state of the gaming industry or whatever-the-fuck. And everyone else will too.
     
  14. Taylor

    Taylor

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    Plenty of cases for 2D Sonic games, but we're talking about 3D ones. The only full-fledged fan 3D Sonic game to my knowledge is SRB2, which imo is the best 3D sonic game. But is quite short.

    Notice how Mega Man has stopped doing that for years. I think only franchises with massive appeal can get away with doing that. Sonic is def popular but I'm not sure if its at COD/Pokemon level.
    That being said, Frontiers is looking to sell pretty damn well, so I guess if it does, they won't have an excuse anymore to *not* do the Mega Man approach, so :shrug:
     
  15. DefinitiveDubs

    DefinitiveDubs

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    Mega Man stopped doing that because they were pumping out something like 7 games a year at some point, and the platformers never sold great to begin with, only being kept afloat by how cheap they were to make and Battle Network being a money printing machine. Then the big financial crisis 2008 happened and suddenly they weren't so cheap to make anymore.

    Sonic, meanwhile, is such a strong brand, with even stronger brand loyalty than freaking Star Wars, that I believe it could easily get away with a safe and formulaic approach like that for at least the next 10 years.
     
  16. Tell that to Pokemon fans.
     
  17. Sneekie

    Sneekie

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    @DefinitiveDubs, you seem exceptionally self-important for someone who gets like this over Sonic the Hedgehog games. You even pulled out a South Park gif.

    That's impressive. I sure hope you put this energy to things that are actually important, and not just potentially disappointing Sonic games. I sure hope that Sonic Frontiers isn't what gets you politically motivated on November 8th (note: if you're not American, this joke fails entirely, lol).

    But, whatever. You want to get like this, then this is my last reply to you. It'll be hard, but that's just an excuse, or something.

    You still haven't answered how you know they haven't.

    Me, looking for those quality 3D Sonic fan-game platformers:

    [​IMG]

    Me, looking for those Mega Man games:

    [​IMG]

    You insist they don't care at all, is the problem. It's not that you think the game is bad, it's that you specifically think the game is bad because they didn't care.

    You have still not explained how Sonic Team didn't try to make as little compromise as possible.

    ...there are several reasons why your analogy doesn't work, but the first and foremost reason is that how do you not understand how much of a condescending arsehole you said for getting this upset over how and why a student gets poor grades? Who are you in this scenario? Are you the teacher? What is Sonic Frontiers in this literal grade school analogy?

    Are you saying that I, the student, shouldn't be upset that my literal killing myself to pursue my education is met with a failing grade? That it is entirely their fault because they didn't just pull up their bootstraps or what-have-you?

    Also, what school do you go to where "everybody else" looks at your homework?

    My second reason is that you do know that grades are not actually important to a conductive life in the future, right? Ever heard of the phrase "Cs get degrees?" In this analogy, you're like "your homework was bad, so you could never possibly achieve anything in life," and that's not true?

    In a school, a good teacher would give you extra time or a lighter workload to do your homework if there are external factors affecting your performance.

    Look, I'm getting sidetracked, the point is you don't make sense.

    The craziest thing is that in this analogy, is that it's not like Sonic Frontiers the product is bad, it's that you physically did not get the copy you ordered, which has no impact as to whether you get it, because you can just get a replacement.

    You suffered a minor inconvenience and you unironically believe that you're entitled to dismiss the genuinely horrible working conditions in Amazon. And you don't see a problem with this!!

    I really don't understand what you're actually getting at comparing Sonic Team to Amazon warehouse employees.

    This argument is not about trying to make you say that Sonic Frontiers is actually good, I don't actually care what you personally think, and I'm not interested in making you so.

    My point was that no, it is not fair to attribute its flaws and possible failure to Sonic Team not caring, and insisting that it must be true or you're doing... whatever you were talking about.

    Nothing about that requires that you think it's good, but it seems your greatest sticking point is that you think it does. I think you're more interested in thinking this way, than it being true.

    But like I said, last time I talk about this.
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2022
  18. DefinitiveDubs

    DefinitiveDubs

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    You see? This is the kind of passive-aggressive dickishness I was talking about earlier. This is what I was talking about with your attitude towards anyone who dares have a negative opinion about Sonic. This is why it is literally impossible to argue with you, because you always find a way to make it personal and attempt to undermine my, and others', characters. I never once insulted you, but you sure as fuck feel the primal need to do so to me.
    "Why make great when good sells better?"
     
  19. Trippled

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    I had alot of empathy for game developers working at 3D Sonic games from Heroes all the way to Generations. Heroes, Shadow, 06, Secret Rings, Unleashed, Black Knight, Colors and Generations all back to back made it clear that a real struggle was going on between strict deadlines and a desire to something different each time. Yeah, they created the problem's themselves, but still.

    With Lost World, Forces and this, I'm more....that's it? Can't really symphatize.

    One thing I know that work culture at SoJ has gotten more orderly and proper. In 2008-2010 I heard the Yakuza team where still sleeping on floors, eating ramen noodles all day and frequently pulling all nighters, and someone compared their old Sega workplace to a construction site with shouting voices. They stopped doing that.
     
  20. Sneekie

    Sneekie

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    @DefinitiveDubs, that's super fascinating! I agree, or something.

    Okay fine, guess I'm not done, but my point was that in reality, grades don't actually matter that much to the goals that students actually want, so your rather explosive and hyperbolic analogy doesn't hold up.

    Do you honestly believe employers care about your individual grades in your classes?

    Did you really get this anxious about your own grades? Did you really exhaust yourself doing homework and then blame yourself when you didn't get A+s every time? If that's true, it would be hypocritical for me to not also give me sympathies.

    Okay, look, we're done! No more fighting. I think Sonic Frontiers is good, you don't, that's what really matters, it's over!

    I haven't heard much at all about Colors and Generations having strict deadlines or particularly troublesome development (being made in 1-2 years couldn't be comfortable, though).

    Forces had much more troublesome development, including having to make one game into an entirely different game. Why does empathy go away for that? I can't tell you what happened with Lost World, though. That game does just kind of baffle me.

    And as an aside, saying that Generations was "trying something different," but Frontiers isn't is... mm.
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2022
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