Canonwise,the issue of Classic Sonic having his own dimension is easy. In Dragonball Super, if you go back in time, you create a new timeline (going to the future, not so much). Same thing here. Because Robotnik messed with the timeline in Generations, we have a new classic timeline where all the modern stuff hasn't happened. At least not yet.
But it wouldn't happen now right? Because Mania Robotnik knows of all of Modern Eggman's failed plots. Why would he repeat them?
That's the beauty of it, he won't. They'll either not happen at all or happen in a completely different way.
To you and anyone else who does not understand when people say this (or thinks we're haters or hate Sonic or whatever): We don't want this game setting a precedent. We don't want this viewed as acceptable standards for the series because it will only be lowered again. We have already watched standards gradually lowering as people accept and excuse them, often uninformed about the games and series but complacent with their opinions and hostile towards criticism. Which we are seeing with Forces, which has flaws so atrocious they're utterly indefensible yet people still defend it, not unlike Sonic 4. And we now have Mania, which in many aspects, if not the most important, is vastly superior to Forces. Sales and to a lesser extent reception (unfortunately) are the only thing that sends a message, and we want it clear what is and is not good for the series. Something I want to be clear on, because of how much I've been seeing people jump to these radical conclusions so easily: Wanting Mania to set a precedent over Forces does not mean we want games identical to Sonic 3 or Mania forever. We want this to be the seed ground for revision and evolution, not a static quota. This also does not mean we want 2d or "pixel" Sonics forever. And on that point, I see a lot of people use 2d and classic synonymously as well as 3d and modern. Classic is not exclusive to 2d nor is modern exclusive to 3d, and 2d and 3d are not definitions of gameplay formulas. Classic and modern are not explicitly tied to some gameplay formula each and both classic and modern have had multiple outings in both 2d and 3d and many gameplay styles. What we're looking for is starting out with an assessment of Sonic's original definitions, what worked and what made it loved, and starting from there, which Mania did. We don't want 16 bit rehashes forever, far from it. We want Sonic to evolve much more naturally and thoughtfully than he has had a chance to over the last couple decades.
No I agree with you I think the confusion was from the line "I hope this bombs, but this is fun." It's a contradictory statement at eye level.
I expected a subpar game...but watching the leaks this game just...so poor as far as gameplay is concerned. It's not that what is there is broken and unpolished. Far from it. The basics are solid as a rock with a few hitches here and there. It's that what is there is basically nothing interesting at all. The step down from Generations is massive while any improvement is next to non existent. The stage design is so bland and cookie cutter. The fucking story is just stupid nonsense but that much was all but certain. The amount of reused mechanics from recent games is staggering. Its like the game stays in a safezone that does nothing out of the box beyond cinematic QTEs which is a detriment. Every 3D Section of a Sonic stage is nothing but rails or quick step sections you boost through to win. Every stage basically one route with very little variation and no replay value. Classic Sonic pulls more gimmicks from the classic games that even generations, but the level design is just platforming nonsense. The avatar is just enemy walls with pieced together stage parts that look like they were modular constructed. The location variation is so pitifully small for a world spanning game. Nothing logically flows or connects to one another. The stages are so short and unimaginably crafted it's just infuriating someone sat there said "this is good enough!" Anyone who worked on generations and then crafted this should have seen the quality dip. And that's not going into the nonsense design of the story and overall game progression.
It's about what we expected really. Not a complete trainwreck or catastrophe but still uninspired and simply not good enough or up to par. The magic and wonderful energy and design of Generations just isn't here in this game. I'd love for us to get a post-mortem on this game one day. Find out whether they really did have a prior prototype that was scrapped and thus had to rush release Forces. It comes across as "we really didn't give a fuck" but there has to be more at play here. Lower budget? Tight deadlines? Insufficient development time? A burnt out Sonic Team? Would love to see the inside story behind this. I'm in two minds with the game as of now. On the one hand it's not "that bad" but on the other it's not "good enough" either. Hoping the reception of this and Mania causes Mania 2 to be green-lit and 3D Sonic takes a break for a while. We ultimately need something better than this.
I believe you mean "mania 2 done Taxman, Stealth and Pagoda West". I don't want to know what a terrorist group like Sonic Team would do if they developed it.
He means to look at the reveal trailer again, where they specifically try to sell the game to you by going "FROM THE PEOPLE BEHIND SONIC COLORS AND SONIC GENERATIONS.." We know there's different elements of Sonic Team shifted on and off projects, but it's a pretty blatant sign of using very specific previous successes while trying to go "oh yeah but ignore Lost World, we totally didn't put people involved with that in charge of this one."
lol That's what I meant dude. Sonic Mania was so unbelievably good because of the talent, energy and dedication of its legendary dev team. Naturally I'd want a sequel produced by them.
This game is just a hot mess of competing undercooked gameplay styles, wasted ideas, and shallow fanservice; with no real attempt to meld it together into a coherent product. Very few elements feel inspired in their concept, and no elements feel well-realized in their execution. Even its best moments are themselves humdrum and unremarkable. The gameplay is easily the worst thing about the whole product, which I honestly think is just plain bad all-around. Each playstyle feels absolutely phoned in, with no real evidence of polish or focus into making them compelling to play or --in the case of Classic and Boost-- even make them an authentic installment over prior games of their respective gameplay. The majority of the content here (level settings, game/level mechanics, enemies, etc.) feels like Sonic 4-styled levels of rehashing material, only three out of the entire game's seven zones can be said to have be original settings; none of the level settings feel like anything we haven't seen before or are improved on past levels either (especially so with the majority of them being manmade city/factory/base levels). The story really amounts to nothing substantial, many of the plot threads and characters feel like complete afterthoughts in terms of their relevance to their overarching narrative, and nobody outside of probably Sonic gets any compelling characterization or motive. Even the presentation is hit and miss--the environments look great, and some music tracks range from being passable to being really good; but they're counter-balanced by other visual elements of the game looking sloppy (namely some textures and models, especially in the cutscenes) and several musical tracks that are largely forgettable noise. This feels like a game made by a studio who are absolutely sick of Sonic as a series and wish they were working on another game entirely; and the results are reheated leftovers that were left in the freezer for over a month. Nothing about Forces screams "decent" or a 7/10 game in the slightest. Especially for a game that was supposedly in development for four years--compared to other games made under a similar timeframe like Mario Odyssey, Forces feels like a passive-aggressive joke. Unless "it's not as bad as Sonic 2006/Rise of Lyric" is the (super low) barometer we're using here as what constitutes as a "decent" 7/10 game here. Sorry, but not being a broken piece of trash and being "playable" shouldn't be a selling point, or be an acceptable standard for Sonic games, especially so after Mania. Forces IMO is a textbook definition of what constitutes a mediocre game, a game that teeters between a 5/10 and a 6/10 score.
Quite the good and insightful prognosis there Yeow. Agree almost entirely. As sad as it may be, we are looking at a mediocre at best Sonic game here. Feels hard to be optimistic when Forces might be the only Sonic game for a while, given how "once in a blue moon" the 3D series has become. Waiting on reviews but feeling much less optimistic now.
Now that Forces' credits are out in the wild, I updated my list of Sonic Team directors and designers who have worked on Sonic games over the past decade (Sonic Team directors/designers who have worked on three or more games are italicized.): Sonic 2006: Director/Game Story/Game Title: Shun Nakamura Chief Game Designers: Shun Nakamura, Atsushi Kanno Game Designers: Hiroshi Miyamoto, Takao Hirabayashi, Masayuki Inoue, Takako Nagase, Makoto Hirata, Daisuke Shimizu Secret Rings: Producer/Director: Yojiro Ogawa Lead Game Designer: Morio Kishimoto Game Designers: Yojiro Ogawa, Shiro Maekawa, Emiko Sunaga, Harumasa Nakajima, Jyunpei Ootsu, Takayuki Okada, Eitaro Toyoda Unleashed: Director/Lead Game Designer: Yoshihisa Hashimoto Day Time Level Designers: Masayuki Inoue, Yoshinobu Uba, Takayuki Okada Night Time Level Designers: Takao Hirabayashi, Natsuha Matsubara, Hideo Ohtsika Lead Planner: Takao Hirabayashi Boss Game Designer: Eitaro Toyoda Combat System Designer: Takao Hirabayashi Black Knight: Producer/Director - Tetsu Katano Lead Game Designer - Morio Kishimoto Game Designers - Harumasa Nakajima, Shintaro Kai, Takahiro Ono, Midori Iwabuchi, Kanano Yamaguchi Colors: Director and Lead Game Designer - Morio Kishimoto Lead Planner - Harumasa Nakajima Planners - Shintaro Kai, Takeshi Yamazaki, Jyunpei Ootsu, Mitsuru Osakada, Kiyoteru Mizuhara Lead Level Designer - Takayuki Okada Level Designers - Natsuha Matsubara, Takahiro Ono, Katsuyuki Shigihara, Kanano Yamaguchi, Midori Iwabachi Generations: Director - Hiroshi Miyamoto Lead Game Designer - Yoshinobu Uba Game Designers - Daisuke Shimizu, Katsuyuki Shigihara, Utako Yoshino, Takamasa Usui, Takayuki Okada, Kanano Yamaguchi, Haruhiko Kashiwazaki Lost World: Director - Morio Kishimoto Level Designers - Natsuha Matsubara, Takayuki Okada, Kanano Yamaguchi, Rei Hata, Yuma Matsunaga, Jyunpei Ootsu, Takahiro Ono Forces: Director and Lead Game Designer - Morio Kishimoto Lead Planner - Takayuki Okada Planners - Atsushi Kusama, Takeshi Endo, Masashi Kanda Lead Level Designer - Jyunpei Ootsu Level Designers - Shoko Kamiya, Yuya Setogawa --- Seems this time around, Forces' group of designers is mostly new staff (planners and level designers), under the direction of a few key Kishimoto staffers (director, lead game designer, lead planner, lead level designer). Also, here's a complete level list for Forces: Stage 1: Green Hill - Lost Valley (Modern) Stage 2: Chemical Plant - Space Port (Avatar) Stage 3: City - Ghost Town (Classic) Stage 4: Death Egg - Prison Hall (Avatar) Stage 5: Death Egg - VS. Zavok (Modern) Stage 6: Death Egg - Egg Gate (Modern) Stage 7: Green Hill - Arsenal Pyramid (Tag Team) Stage 8: Mystic Jungle - Luminous Forest (Modern) Stage 9: Mystic Jungle - VS. Infinite (Modern) Stage 10: Green Hill - Green Hill (Classic) Stage 11: Green Hill - VS. Eggman (Classic) Stage 12: City - Park Avenue (Avatar) Stage 13: Mystic Jungle - Casino Forest (Classic) Stage 14: Mystic Jungle - Aqua Road (Avatar) Stage 15: City - Sunset Heights (Modern) Stage 16: Metropolis - Capital City (Avatar) Stage 17: Metropolis - VS. Infinite (Avatar) Stage 18: Chemical Plant - Chemical Plant (Classic) Stage 19: City - Red Gate Bridge (Tag Team) (VS. Metal Sonic) Stage 20: Green Hill - Guardian Rock (Avatar) Stage 21: Chemical Plant (Modern) Stage 22: Death Egg (Classic) Stage 23: Metropolis (Modern) Stage 24: Metropolis (Tag) Stage 25: Empire Fortress (Avatar) Stage 26: Empire Fortress (Modern) Stage 27: Vs. Infinite (Tag) Stage 28: Empire Fortress (Classic) Stage 29: Empire Fortress (Tag) Stage 30: Mega Death Egg Robot
That last boss name. It's not a death egg robot at all. For fucks sake it could have been called anything else and they chose that? Fucking stupid.
7 actual levels hidden behind 30 stages. Wow. Also, the boss fights all seem to have the same animations and behaviors as Egg Nega Wisp. They already did that rehash in Lost World. This new team (since Lost World) ... is pretty bad.
