Sonic Mania (Switch, PS4, Xbox One, PC...Netflix?)

That's his thing though. All his reviews are like that.

 

I don't get it.


Fine with him disliking Mania (or acting it) each to their own I guess. Just don't like his style/execution. Would have been nice to see some footage of the things he said happened rather than as I said, constant talking with no breaks for hilarious effect. Anyway.

 

On a similar topic - I think lives and time limits should be kept (I think they are felt about similarly), but exploration should be rewarded with lives AND time monitors. This balances everything.

The feeling of getting a life monitor is satisfying! I wouldn't want that removed. Time can be handled in a similar way, and it allows you to explore everywhere.

 

They should just have added the option to disable the time limit, like in the GBA and DS games. I agree the time limit shouldn't be forced upon players. It has always annoyed me how it gets in the way of exploration, even back in the 90s, so I was irritated Sonic 4 and Mania excluded that option.

 

While we are on the topic of the time limit, it doesn't help that 'Time' doesn't flash in the HUD anymore, so you aren't aware you have one minute left, for example. It's a small thing, but without it, I've found myself with a Time of 9'42'11 (just an example) and I didn't even realise I had passed the 9 minute mark. The 10 second 'warning' is also absent from the Competition Mode, too.

I know this isn't really the place to be mentioning bugs (I'll be listing these off, and several more, in the appropriate thread once it's re-opened), but I thought it was relevant as per the discussion.

Also, any word on the initial update? It's been over 4 weeks since launch on consoles, and I still cannot access the leaderboards (PS4 version) as the game crashes as soon as I press the triangle button to access it.

 

I noticed that when I was playing on a Switch, but it's been fixed in the PC version.

 

And Sonic Jam.

 

Removing the time limit seems like it would have been a no brainer as far as Blue Sphere unlockables are concerned.

 

Yeah, I'm impatiently patiently waiting for the PS4 patch which:

1) maps the Super-transformation to a different button (makes it much more fun not being forced to transform when pressing jump twice, especially with Tails & Knux).
2) you get an extra-life every 50,000 points like in 3&K.

^ with these two tweaks it makes it possible get the max 99 lives in a single playthrough which I've done several times on the Steam version.

3) the timer starts flashing when it reaches 9 minutes.
4) the bug fixes etc.

5) The dream would be for the patch to include at least some of the missing transitions. If they're not gonna patch them then I wish Team Mania would just confirm it.


Definitely feels like Mania needed more development time, but was rushed to release to get it out before Forces. Makes me think of how Sonic 2 was rushed to meet it's 1992 Christmas release window when it could have benefited from more development time.

Mania is a really good game, but I won't be satisfied until I get the PS4 patch with all of the above.

 

Okay, I think some of you guys are clinging to one particular phrase in Yahtzee's video simply because it aligns with a common complaint, instead of looking into the full picture.

Yahtzee's point was that the game used those elements to plaster over the cracks of some flimsy design, which is inherently untrue. He talks about how the flashy pinball gameplay is simply there to obfuscate the large complex levels, the timer, the hidden collectables, all the stuff that he himself said was, "elegantly designed" when mentioning a previous game in the series. You ping around the levels uncontrollably so you can't get to any secrets, and by the time you figure out there is a secret the game forces you away from it, and to make sure you don't muck about too much trying to get more secrets they add a timer there so you keep going forward. I know this probably sounds silly and "old fashioned", but finding secrets is supposed to be hard. I can get the complaints about the timer, but having that somehow trickle over to the maps and secrets being handled poorly is just kind of stupid. It's not Sonic CD, the levels aren't geared toward running around and finding shit. At the end of the day, getting from A to B is "the point". On subsequent playthroughs, once you know all the tricks and have gotten used to the game a little bit, then you can start exploring and looking for stuff. There's also the potential that you coincidentally run into a secret you didn't know was there. You're not going to get everything in a single playthrough, that's the point. Should the time limit have been removed? Sure, I absolutely agree. Does it really ruin the game so fucking much that it seriously hurts the experience? To me, not at all, especially given how straightforward and consistent the level design here is compared to the other games (which even then, it was still never a problem for me). I see no reason why this one aspect somehow utterly demolishes the game's quality, and somehow invalidates every other facet of it's design. Yahtzee doesn't have a point here, because his point is extremely overgeneralized.

Also, he treats Mania's method of design as if every Sonic game was built the same way, as if level design and secrets were done the same throughout all of the other titles (cept he mentions the big rings in Sonic 1 so...)

 

No it doesn't, not like I described.

I agree with the need to keep the player from feeling confused (personally I prefer the exploration but I see the need to support new players), and I completely agree with your Oil Ocean & Sandopolis comment. But this:



and this:



...just break immersion with the level, annoy the player at what looks like a tacked-on restriction, and add nothing to preventing confusion (consider the springs in both areas).

And there is no reason for this:




Preventing confusion is a good thing but it doesn't just make any lockouts in a level good things. There are several better design approaches, and even if they are absolutely necessary, there are tonnes of ways to make them so intuitive the player doesn't notice.

 

To be fair on that last one, the area before it already kind of locked the player out a bit and it had the pre-boss checkpoint. A point of no return like that plus the underground background change help to warn the player of what's coming up.

 

While on the topic of poor design choices, the Studiopolis Act 1 boss presented a perfect example tonight. It is seriously one of the worst classic bosses ever.

My housemate was playing, she's not to strong at Sonic games and this was her first proper attempt at Sonic Mania. Really pleased with herself for passing Chemical Plant, and really likes Studiopolis, commenting on how good it is for just roaming around and exploring. She actually plays kind of like the ideal player: exploring, really valuing rings, counting lives, it all works. Scraped into SPZ with 1 life left, got to the miniboss with 3 lives left.

And the clock on 9'08".

As she starts fighting I realise, and say "Uh... you have to time out. There's no way you can beat this boss in time." Too late, already dead. She hasn't seen the boss before.

Starpost.
9'08".
She starts running.

"No you've gotta just ... just don't die. Dodge the red ones." Died. I offer commiserations while she explains that she doesn't even know how to hit it.

"Ok this time just stand around, you have to let it time out before you start."

Except it's her last life.

"Oh... you have to run back! Farm a life!"

She tried but failed. More importantly, wasn't enjoying it.

So the massive problem here: If the player reaches SPZ1's final starpost after roughly 8'30", the game forces them to deliberately time out.


I really like the game but this is rubbish. She game over'd and was so done with Sonic Mania. Like hovering-on-delete-button-in-jest done.

 

No disrespect to how you're thinking but I disagree with all of those points. A background change can mean anything. One locked area prior to another locked area doesn't make it less locked, or provide warning, nor would a warning make it ok, nor can the player know they're in any locked area until it's too late. Star posts don't advertise the boss proximity, but again this wouldn't make it less uncool to lock the player out of the level anyway.

You can actually escape that earlier starpost area at least though.

 

Yeah, I remember a fair amount of us pointing out the checkered barriers in Green Hill were really strange and sticking out badly compared to the rest of the game as far back as the first demo surfaced. It seemed it was more of a placeholder thing, so to see it in the final game was pretty surprising due to how...amateurish it looked (no offense to the devs). The third example with the grass platform used as a layer to lockout the rest of the level does look more natural, but a case could be made that it wasn't necessary.

Thankfully all of the following levels are a lot smarter and more subtle with stopping level backtracks.

 

Bit late to the party, but I completed it 100% and figured I'd post some thoughts.

The most important thing that I'd say about Sonic Mania is that, for me, it felt like a true sequel to the original trilogy, in ways that no other game in the series ever has. There have been all sorts of attempts over the years, but even at their best, with the original Sonic Advance, it never really felt like something that carried the torch. And I think that's because for the game to feel right at home with the classics, it has to capture not only physics and gameplay, but also the creativity, the passion, the ingenuity that came with working on a flagship videogame for a flagship console at the time. Sonic Mania is not a videogame designed to tick checkboxes, but one that is eager to surprise and delight, and I think that's what makes it special.

Some positives that I'd highlight:

• Super impressive graphic/art work everywhere. Seriously major props to Tom Fry and everyone in his team because I can only begin to fathom the amount of work that has gone into every animation and frame in this game. I'd go as far as to say that it sets a new bar for pixel art work in indie games.
• What a terrific soundtrack, absolutely loved it, not a single bad song. Even the Super theme is for my taste the best the series has ever had. What a wonderful work have Tee Lopes and Falk done here.
• Really enjoyed the level design in Sonic Mania. Best in class for me, not one level felt dull or uninspired to play. The people that designed the levels in this game deserve more credit, because designing good levels is not something that comes naturally, it really does takes skill.
• Great bosses all around, I really enjoyed that most bosses weren't just a retread of the usual boss mechanics, but actually thoughtful designs. The Metal Sonic battle, or the FBZ2 boss come to mind. And then there's the Chemical Plant surprise of course :v:
• Speaking of which, I really liked the Hard Boiled Heavies, both the concept and the execution; they were charming, had a lot of charisma, the encounters in-game are fresh and interesting, and they fit perfectly in the context of classic sonic. I just wish they had a bigger role in the plot, but hopefully we'll see them return again some time.
• Difficulty was perfect, for my taste anyway. Not so easy that you never lose a life or beat all special stages on your first try, but not so hard that it becomes frustrating and you get stuck. I mean, sure, some special stages took several tries while you were getting the hang of it, and some bosses (hello OOZ2!) took some lives, but I found all that within reason. I've seen that some complain about the difficulty, but personally I don't see it. I wouldn't have it any easier than it is now.
• Speaking of the Special Stages, superb concept and execution! They take a bit to master, but they never felt unfair to me like, say, Sonic 2's half pipes. And the idea that you have to collect both rings and spheres for time and speed makes it very interesting, as it often has you deciding whether you go for one or the other. Easily my favorite special stages in the series now.
• I liked the extra challenge of collecting all the gold medallions and how it carried over between playthroughs. Gives something to do besides collecting emeralds, and the original blue spheres layouts were really well designed. But then I like blue spheres, I guess the experience is not the same for people who don't.
• Tantalus Media did a great job with the Switch port. There are only some minor issues with the home/power button, but other than that it was super solid in all my playthroughs.

And some nitpicks (these don't break the game for me, but just saying):

• No complete zone transitions It's not a huge deal-breaker, but the missing transitions are a noticable omission after the first few zones. Something that would have made it a tiny wee more complete.
• It's a bit weird that extras cannot be used outside of the "no-save" mode. Like debug mode I get it, but no insta-shield or super-peel out in save mode? It's a long game to beat in one sitting.
• No traditional bonus stages ala S3, they were kind of handy to get the ocassional shield or rings back then, feels like the game is a bit harder without it.
• No use for the blue spheres stages after collecting all gold medallions, throw me a shield or something at least :v: Would have also been nice if the "mania" blue spheres took over bonus stages in normal playthroughs after collecting all gold medallions, for a change.
• I really liked the additions in the "mania" blue spheres (the unlockable). Wish there was something to track progress or some extra medallions for that, though I see that it's more or less the same set of pieces that repeat in these levels.
• Wish there were some more collectibles or unlockables, since the levels are so expansive you don't mind going over them several times. But that's just me being greedy, since the game already offered plenty in terms of unlockables, certainly more than Sonic 3&K.

Overall, I enjoyed Sonic Mania immensely, it had me grinning from ear to ear through much of it. I'd love for Sonic Mania to be the beginning of something, but even if it isn't, I wish everyone involved in the Mania Team all the best professionally, you are all very talented and I hope you all get to work on remarkable videogames in the future.

Alright, back to lurking for another ten years :v:

 

If the time limit did become optional, I would find it really cool if upon finish a level after 10'00" you kill the boss but no capsule appears.

Just a little silent and somber nod to the general lore.

 

While I agree with Yahtzee with the whole timer and lockout mechanics that made hunting for special rings a bitch; may I remind you that restart the level and it doesn't cost you a damn life. It totally negates most (if not all) of his complaints about Sonic Mania.

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Except the point of watching stuff like Yahtzee and the like for the fans of that particular content is to have an opinion to parrot so they look smarter even though they're just watching it because they get a laugh out of it.

It reminds me of Undertale, a mediocre game that gets praised a lot even though the pacifist best ending run makes the combat system entirely pointless.