Does the concept of Sonic work in the Third Dimension at all?

I think that Sonic Generations proved that not only does it work, but it doesn't need half of the restrictive shit that SEGA put in, like dashpads in every corner. The only thing I want in the future is a way to turn 90 degrees automatically, like a lightcycle from TRON, but that would require more buttons than the controllers of today have. I miss the black and white buttons on the xbox original.

 

The problem is, I thought Modern Seaside Hill was not suited to the Modern Sonic gameplay at all. Ended up surfing myself in to walls or nothingness a few times and not being able to find what the camera was pointing at.

I think the whole ranking system based on speed is a bit rubbishy really. Maybe if you entered time attack mode yeah, but having your sole objective as 'beating the level as fast as possible' shouldn't be what the game is about.

The original Sonic games left you with a choice- they didn't rank you and save your rank if you went slow, but they awarded you with points which felt good. They let you explore, let you go from the top of the stage to the bottom and back again, all the while making sure you never hit that 10 minute timer end (if anyone ever did- maybe as a child). It was great to find secrets and go through special tube tunnels and through breakable walls in a spin (which you did yourself, by the way).

Whilst the current 3D games have it down well, they're often missing that element of exploration. I felt personally that the Sonic Adventure & Adventure 2 stages had it perfectly. Yeah, there were issues to iron out, like the dodgy camera - actually, it was probably JUST the camera, which is why the current games are all fixed- but it felt like classic Sonic. You could take a large amount of time and get a rubbish score, but that wasn't the only objective. Even if you took your time, you could balance out your final result by collecting rings and beating robots and generally doing cool tricks and stuff. Plus it let you use the spin attack yourself, decide to curl or run or backtrack (once the camera had adjusted to you going backwards).

I just feel like the newer ones are half the point. I love speedrunning through Green Hill Zone, but sometimes I like to explore and chill out and listen to the funky music whilst killing badniks. The new games don't allow that in 3D. Back tracking is an awkward affair and the levels are very closed.

That said, there were major points in Generations where they brought this style back- Sky Sanctuary being an awesome example. I hope they continue to be diverse and allow a bit of exploration of scenery and hidden item boxes and varying levels of height in future.

 

There's only one game that came close to a true 3D Sonic Game:
http://youtu.be/mW-nMRZGpgA
Skip to 16:24

 

To some degree, yes, but there are still problems. Sonic stages are comprised of loops and ramps and half pipes and that sort of thing - moving this into 3D could be awkward both from a level design perspective and when dealing with the issues presented by the camera. Marble games generally are very "open" - there aren't many "walls", and stages are surrounded by vast chunks of space to guarantee cameras will never become an issue. The idea is not to "fall off" things - Sonic never really shares this issue in 2D, so in order to keep in tune with the classic level design, you'd need vast open worlds with lots of scenery and I just don't think it'll work.


now the worring paradox means that under this logic Super Monkey Ball is a technical successor to "classic Sonic"

 

The main issues I have with Sonic Adventure are Sonic's sensibility, collisions related problems, and the camera. Other than that, I think you're right, it's a good exemple of a Sonic game in 3D that kind of works. Even if the levels don't offer much exploration. The adventure fields are there for that purpose I guess.

 

While the camera angles in 3D sonic games can certainly restrict the ability to build multiple paths vertically (or at least the player's ability to choose anything but the bottom path in most cases), I feel like they add a lot of potential horizontally. Just look at Sky Sanctuary act 2 for that; it's got a huge chunk of what makes the classic games so good reimagined in three dimensions (better than any other stage in Generations, IMO). It's not just the existence of multiple paths either. At multiple points, there are split paths that begin forked horizontally, but then twist in such a way that the faster but more difficult path to take ends up above the easier path, creating a very similar dynamic to the classic games where if you fuck up you just drop to the slow path.

But heck, Generations has examples all over its second acts. Just off the top of my head:

• Green Hill: Breaking the bridge near the end
• Chemical Plant: The opening shortcut with the light speed dash
• Sky Sanctuary: Pretty much the entire level, but especially that place where you jump to the right and get on a zipline
• Speed Highway: Breaking the boards in the car garage
• City Escape: The powerlines over the streets

I could keep going, but I really don't feel like trying to remember the layouts to the rest of the stages. At any rate, my point is that they have definitely captured what is arguably the most important aspect of traditional Sonic games. It's not the speed, it's not the physics. It's the idea of speed being a reward for skilled platforming. Just running through will get you to the end, but paying attention, reacting quickly, and generally being good at the platforming bits opens up better routes and allows the player to move faster.

To that end, I'd say that Sonic has succeeded in 3D, more than people might admit. The level layouts were always the star of the classic games, and Sonic Generations clearly understands that. The idea of transplanting formerly vertical split paths into horizontal ones and then sending them back to a vertical space after the split was a brilliant one, and as far as I'm concerned the epitome of "the concept of Sonic".

 

The alternate "paths" boasted by the daytime stages amount to little more than a few occasionally intersecting lines. A few of the modern stages are like this (Green Hill being the biggest offender), but stages like Seaside Hill (MY FAVORITE STAGE IN THE WHOLE GAME, BTW) are a lot closer to the sort of feel I want a 3D, open ended Sonic game, as they have more space, platforming, and pretty much everything I could ask for. They still aren't quite there, of course, but it's a good step closer.

As for an open, possibly sandbox style world, it's risky, but I do think it's POSSIBLE for such a concept to work. As long as it's immersive and inviting, and not just empty, I think this would compliment Sonic's speed, as I see running AROUND in a space that actually FEELS 3D, and not just like a 2D style level seen from behind Sonic instead of next to him, to reach any place you could want to get to as a better use for it than simply careening down a tube like a bullet being shot out of a barrel, to get a long stretch of running straight overwith as quickly as possible.

As for "getting lost", which really is such a trivial thing to be concerned about as it's an incredibly easy fix, just throw some distinct landmarks in there. For example, let's say Sonic has reached a point in the story where Tails or some NPC has told him to go to "Crimson Rock Zone", or some place like that. Hey, look! There's a big, cool looking volcano, waaay in the distance! May as well run in that direction! Even if THAT isn't enough direction for the player, then the developers can just highlight the destination with a big beam of light that reaches the sky, like in Ultimate Spider Man or Brutal Legend. That almost always works.

However, I think the next best thing would be to simply make a stage centered around Sonic's gameplay from Adventure 1, and make the stages much wider from side to side and more intricate.



Now, let's go over ROLLING. This would be SO easy for talented developers, regardless of whatever company they hail from. Why? BECAUSE RETRO STUDIOS CAME CLOSER TO CAPTURING THE CLASSIC PHYSICS IN 3D THAN SONIC TEAM EVER HAS. The Morph ball, as used in Metroid Prime, greatly reminds me of classic Sonic's rolling mechanics. Now, there are some BIG differences, such as the fact that you can stay in Morph ball mode for as long as you want, while Sonic only stays curled when rolling at a good speed, and he uncurls himself if he slows down, not to mention that he has to stop in order to spindash, while Samus can rev up her boost ball feature while already in motion. Still, aside from that, the actual physics of rolling feel kind of (not a LOT, but kind of) like rolling around as Sonic. In fact, one of the most important uses of the morph ball was to roll along either side of a halfpipe, which, granted, is still a lot harder for her to do than it is for Sonic, but the concept is still there. The BASE is there. If done right, if tweaked to be closer to the classic physics, this sort of thing could work, at least I think so.

As for how this could be mapped on a controller, it's simple. Press whatever button is used to spin dash, only you just lightly TAP it instead of holding it down. If Sonic was running fast enough, or if he was at the top of an incline, he'd curl into a ball, start rolling, and you let gravity do the rest. Once he slows down enough, or the player jumps, or whatever, Sonic uncurls. It's simple, but I think it could work. In fact, you COULD simply roll around in Sonic Adventure, though it wasn't as momentum-based or effective as doing this would be in the genesis games.

Anyhow, good to see you really getting into this place. Thanks for the shoutout, dude.

Wow, what a destructively pessimistic and unimaginative way to look at things. Just because Sonic Team has never quite done it doesn't mean it's downright impossible. As for the camera, a concept like that of the marble whatever game would work just fine if the camera followed Sonic around closely enough and if the environments were always fairly spacious and the camera wasn't crammed into a claustrophobia inducing corridor. I've seen so many 3D fan games where, when Sonic goes through a loop,, the camera follows him, instead of zooming away from him and creating the need for splines and scripted events, and provided this doesn't make the player queasy, this usually works just fine! Have faith, this CAN work.

 

Sonic Generation is a good example of Modern Sonic done right. The 3D stages felt great and the level design was fantastic. To this day I can find new things in that game, just like the classic games. I think the next 3D Sonic should expand on Sonic Generations act 2 stages. Create new stages build on speedy exploration. Also the point system should reward both speed AND exploration. Meaning that speed is important but not as important as let say having tons of rings or getting secrets. For example let say the game gives you extra points for going out of the main road, and what not.

 

You. I like you. We basically said the same thing minus the stuff I said about adding more expressive and interactive actions like parkour and badnick fighting. I think a huge modification to the Adventure 1 formula was what I was trying to articulate. Scrap the spindash spam, add in some sort of super momentum trigger, make rolling a toggle skill with movement, add in slopes and ramps, open up the world, and other overhauls to bring it up to speed. I'm going to spend 9000 hours in ms paint wiping up some crap to horribly illustrate what I'm talking about.

 

I honestly imagine my ideal 3D Sonic game would be a mixture of 'classic' momentum mechanics, rolling and whatnot, mixed with the parkour platforming of Prince of Persia: Sands of Time and its successors, except faster-paced and tied in with the momentum mechanics. For example, the Prince can run up walls to reach ledges or be able to wall-jump to higher places. Sonic could utilize momentum to be able to achieve greater heights when running up a wall, and he won't be able to reach a certain ledge or something if he simply tries running up a wall without any prior momentum.

The 'modern' gameplay we have now is far from the ideal. It's rather restrictive, encourages over-linearity, far too speed-focused, and limiting in what designers can actually achieve. Generations was not bad, but it was mostly forgettable. Unleashed was utter garbage, and Colours was mediocre.

 

Well if you can give me an example of a 3D Sonic game that brings the 2D formula into 3D, you can colour me impressed.

spoilers: nobody has made one

The idea is you never have a fully 3D Sonic game. You can have "partial" 3D Sonic games (depending on what your definiton of 3D is) but effectively Sonic Team have found themselves having to limit a dimension in order for the gameplay to make any sense at all. This is particularly true in more recent games - though you technically have some control in the on-the-rails segments going forward/backwards (I.e. into the screen), the emphasis is on moving left, right, up and down, (I.e. two dimensions). It's a linear path - you don't really get to decide where you go in the "3D" bits - certainly it's not as open-ended as Mario 64 or something like that, because otherwise you'd need a much bigger stage and a completely different definition of a goal.

The likes of SonicGDK get the closest to "2D Sonic in 3D", but I could never see a traditional Sonic game being built from that (unless it's a 2D game using a 3D engine). Basically the best you could hope for is Mario 64 with physics, and I don't think that captures the experience of a 2D Sonic game all that well. Truth be told, Mario 64 doesn't really capture the spirit of Super Mario World either, but Mario is a versatile character designed to cope with change and a change in speed doesn't affect him much - not the same with Sonic - the speed changes would no doubt be noticable.

Also the traditional Sonic loops are effectively 2D set pieces. It's a "2D loop in 3D" as opposed to a "3D loop" (no I'm not entirely sure what a 3D loop would look like either - that's part of the problem). This has been the thinking of Sonic Team and associates from the mid-90s - full 3D is impossible, while 2D presented in 3D (or "partial 3D") is doable (but limited). I say scrap the third dimension entirely because there's frankly no need for it in Sonic.

 

Whatever! I like the 3D games and will continue to buy them.

You can't make a 3D version (with 3D gameplay, I mean) of a 2D game without losing some parts of the original gameplay.

 

Sorry, but I just can't support what you're saying. In my eyes, you're just being a defeatist and discouraging innovation. I don't see Sonic Team as the end all be all development of Sonic games. Just because THEY can't be bothered to go all the way doesn't mean that NO ONE should be expected to. As you've admitted, some of the GDK mods are closer to how a Sonic game should play in a 3D space than what Sonic Team is making.

Heck, check out the sketches the guy linked to in the opening post, along with this. http://forums.sonicretro.org/index.php?showtopic=30390&st=0&p=721792&#entry721792 This is how I envision a 3D Sonic game.

 

What if we used one of the shoulder buttons as a 3D equivalent of the 2D "down" button - and only use that one to go into a roll, and do a spindash (eg. hold the shoulder button down and press jump)? That way it will solve the problem of how you do the same sort of thing in a 3D environment when it's impossible with the D-Pad to do.

Sonic Adventure kind've did it, but it's not really the same.

 

Innovation would be... not making a Sonic game at all. Which indeed would be a very good thing because then you can make use of the hardware and skillsets on offer and not be tied to someone else's idea.

I'm happy to see an amazing 3D Sonic game, but I don't think it'll happen. I can't comprehend a situation where it would work and no doubt others feel similarly, so although I'm not against the concept of experimentation... you have to draw the line somewhere. It is far better to be able to admit when something is going wrong rather than plough on in the hope that C++ Jesus will bestow himself among the living - there's been fifteen years of 3D Sonic experiments, most of them have failed for one reason or another, and it gets to a stage where it stops being worth the effort.

p.s. I didn't say they were better


Sonic, in my mind, doesn't benefit from an extra dimension. There's no real reason to put him in 3D space other than to make some stupid point about graphical superiority in the 90s. I have far more respect for games which know what they are - trying to turn something into a different sub-genre with an entirely different style of play seems inherently lazy and you start trading off brand recognition, as opposed to the quality of the game. And Mario is indeed the perfect example of thirty years of cash-ins - the only difference there is that Mario was designed that way from the outset, and Nintendo has luckily never produced a Mario game that's outstandlingly awful. That series is tired too.

 

It seems that you argued that Most of the Platfrom games before the 32/64 bit era (PS1/PSX, N64, SSat) doesn't deserved to be in 3d because none of them were created with 3D exploration in mind. That and it's best that all of the corporations should continue to create new IPs suited for those technology, despite the risk.

It seems that you're against corporate branding as a whole.

 

Well, all any of your statements really amount to to me is an effort to shut up anyone who even bothers talking about such possibilities. As if they aren't worth talking about, so topics like this should just be cut down. That probably isn't your intention, but I just can't read into it beyond that. To keep hammering in that "NO! It CAN'T WORK, so don't even think of trying!" is such a horrid attitude to have in regards to anything, because that basically shoots down any chance of any progress ever being made for anthing.

Me, I've had enough 2D Sonic. If they make another one, that's fine, but I want the series to evolve, while the rush games, Sonic 4 and so on are just a step BACK from what made the classics so good. I think they should focus on making a good, ambitious, fully 3D game. And if it's a matter of just killing Sonic altogether and forgetting about him.... well, that's just such a downer.

 

Yuji Naka and his team failed to make a decent 3D Sonic.

If the man/myth/diva behind the original formula couldn't get Sonic to work in 3D without serious flaws or modern Sonic Team forcing some invisible hallways on stages to present 3D perspective in a 2D playstyle (utilizing this quite a bit since Unleashed), I don't think at least 75% of this fanbase is qualified to even talk about what would make a good 3D Sonic game since the whole base is fractured enough that no matter what Sonic Team does, people will complain. Sonic 4's implosion (not without a bit of pointing at Sega as well) was enough of that.

Ideally? We'd look at something similar to Jungle Joyride 1's water running segments or Planet Wisp 2 in Generations early on with branching multiple paths and platforming that will work with Sonic's speed formula without forcing a disguised 2D as 3D feel. That's tricky to pull off considering that with Sonic, there's a great expectation in the general population for the game to be speedy. Sonic is firmly rooted in speed, even if design choices in the Genesis titles do nod otherwise.

Sonic 1: Speedy zone, platform zone, speedy with a little platforming, slow zone with lots of platforming, speedy zone, platform zone.

You'll notice that people will often cite Green Hill or Starlight as their zones of choice in Sonic 1, yet pan Marble for being too dull or Labyrinth Zone for (insert myriad of reasons here.) Hell, I've been meaning to set up a little analysis of this on the front page. I may need to actually go ahead and pull the trigger on that.

But what do I know? I'm just a budding game designer still learning the ropes of setting up a proper engine and building worlds around it to accentuate the game's strengths into being enjoyable.

But I digress. It's this fracturing that makes me both excited and dreading to see if Sega goes insane enough to pull the trigger on a Sonic Adventure 3. The title has been so often requested by fans and so often speculated about how it will be that no matter WHAT Sega does, people will bitch about it. It's a title that on name alone has a self-defeating prophecy... all because the fans can't control their fandom.

 

I think there are far too many variables for the concept to be easy put into practise, and note, these are issues that fifteen years of official games and 583920432 fangames have never addressed. Simple things like "if Sonic is about getting from point A to point B, how do we represent this without creating a linear, two dimensional experience". I don't think it can be done without changing the goal, and by changing the goal, you change the game, and thus it's not classic Sonic anymore. It may be better or worse but it can't be the same.

I wouldn't want to discourage people from trying but if you're limited on resources, I just don't see it as any sort of priority, particularly when the evidence shows it's a long and awkward journey to success. I'm tired of 2D Sonic too, but I'd much rather see more of a working engine than a bunch of half-baked experiements.


as for the whole sequel thing so I don't derail this topic further, I'll just make this plug and say yes, Sonic should die.

 

After reading this blog of yours, I'm under the assumption that you're against publisher rights to control their intellectual properties which was made by the individuals that developed it. Because this applies to basically ALL Media as a whole, especially with Peanuts and Doraemon continuing long after their creators' death.