Is Sonic hacking... "dying"?

If I remember, my creative work on Sonic One was one of the things that inspired Markey's awesome hacking work, way back. I remember him asking me on YouTube to continue work on it when I'd stopped.

Creativity is inspiring, and awesome. Technical hacks can only go so far; and so I'm in agreement with Markey here.

 

I also second this, not simply for the entertainment value of transversing new levels and such but also to assist beginner hackers. For example I am starting to learn how to hack Sonic 2, I can already make large scale layout changes however, I'm no good with level design and would likely get wrecked if I were to post anything. So being able to play through said hacks in this contest would help me (and other hacking beginners I assure you) learn what tricks makes good level design by paying attention to a revolving theme between the hacks or just reading all the feedback posted on these layout changes only hacks. Hell we could even take an idea implemented into a hack and put it into our own in a special and unique way of course level design-wise. You definitely have my full support for this contest Sik.

 

Yeah, I really need some assistence with level designs, and such a contest would help beginner hackers like me with Sonic 2. This is a great idear! If we were to have a thematic hacking contest, how about also having a Sonic 2 Special Stage editing contest (using Flamewing's S2SSE)? I seriously want to see people create unique S2 Special stages, especially since no one has yet made a hack utilizing this tool of pwnage. Or maybe level-edited Chaotix hacks using the 2 latest versions of SonED2/ROMulan, which is another thing that hasn't been done yet. Or mayber even basic SCD PC/Mega CD hacks using said utilities (yeah right, I'm wishing too big :P). We really should make this thematic hacking contest a reality. Who's with me ? It would be like a Sonic hacking Renaissance!

 

I dunno why, but the idea of a Vanilla Sonic hack came to mind. :v:

 

That seems a bit overenthusiastic.

Though I do remember, during my brief tenure on the forums at DoomWorld, they used to hold a "speedmapping" event every now and again. Idea was, a theme was set (I remember one being "lava city") and then everyone would have an hour to do the best map they could.

Nix the time limit (or maybe give a day, possibly one over the weekend) but keep the theme and get people all just throwing out a single layout, maybe? You know, for a short sorta for-fun contest?

I dunno.

 

At least have people design layouts for other levels! I'm sure everyone could survive without another GHZ layout for a while.

Also, difficulty plz. Fair difficulty not just cheap or insane; levels where platforming has to be careful and badniks actually pose a challenge.

 

The spindash is pretty much on every sequel that attempted to gimmick the original game. Sonic 2, Sonic 3 & Knuckles, Sonic 3D, Sonic Spinball, Sonic CD (sorta), Chaotix, Sonic Pocket Adventure, Sonic R (I think), Sonic Adventure, Sonic Advance, Sonic Advance 2, Sonic Advance 3, Sonic Rush, etc. Also breakable walls without the spindash can become a pain sometimes, and if I recall correctly, S3K even had some enemies that required you to roll into them to attack (jumping didn't work).

On those who complain they aren't good at level design: try making the layouts first and forget about objects (except springs and such that are needed to beat the level). And avoid abusing bottomless pits, they should be the exception, not the rule.

 

Personally, I think it's more a combination of people being secretive, some people being way too busy with their real lives, or some being downright lazy. I know in my case it happens to be all 3.

Another thing I think is people are just tired of the same old thing over and over. Once again, in my case, I don't usually reply to hacks or anything, because I just don't feel up to it when a beginner hacker makes a level because there's usually the same problems they all face, and I think people get tired of repeating the same things over and over.

So it only APPEARS to be dead, when it actually just comes down to people not being motivated because the lack of high quality content. If something that REALLY stands out pops up, I'm sure people would jump on it.

Sometimes simple is better, sometimes it isn't. Just my opinion, however.

Personally, I love this idea.

 

Actually, I used that as a sort-of 'puzzle' in GHZ act 2 of Sonic One to get a double one-up; a little challenge that is ruined by S-Factor's spindash and related moves. Just saying it should be an option for Sonic 1 hacks and not mandatory. Force players to think about how they're going to get their momentum. If you're going to default to the mentality of "IMMA SPINDASH RIGHT HERE" without fail every time there's a breakable wall or steep incline, you might as well put speed boosters everywhere. :3

 

I lost interest into hacking right after I released my hack a few years ago. A few times I was tempted to start again, and I even considered to start a secret team hack project, but it died even before it started due to technical problems.

I'm still up for the occasional thing here and there, but now I also have a job that eats almost all of my free time.

 

I never said it was mandatory, I just said it could be considered an exception to the "no new features" rule. Maybe I should add the spike behavior one in the mix too. The idea for these exceptions is to allow hackers to use the Sonic 1 engine but apply the rules from the later MD games (with stress on the MD part, meaning that things like homing attack and such would not be valid).

S3K had almost all breakable walls in spots that were very hard to notice (some were visible, but some were pretty well hidden) - they were more of a mean to hide secret rooms than anything else. I think the only times where breakable walls are used for the main path are the Hydrocity 2 intro, one area in Lava Reef 1 and the entrances for Knuckles-only paths.

If we should do away with the spindash because it takes away the challenge of gaining momentum, then I guess we should also ban the speed shoes =P

 

The speed shoes aren't available at any time though.

Also, there are breakable walls on main paths in Marble Garden Zone, Carnival Night Zone and Launch Base Zone (act 2).

My point though, and this is related to the idea that the hacking scene may be getting stale, is instead of thinking a default "we should put the spindash in Sonic 1 because Sonic 1 doesn't have the spindash" is to actually question this notion. What new challenges can be made without the move? Are there alternatives? What are the benefits to including it, and do they outweigh the differences not including it would bring? Will this make the hack different to others out there?

Same with the spike behaviour. Hell, last I was hacking I went the other way and made the spikes instantly kill, a la Mega Man -- since I've not seen a hack do that, and I've seen spikes lazily used to make challenging areas; my idea was that I'd use them sparingly, but to present a real threat here.

The cliche is to see this as "thinking outside the box". Personally, I very easily get bored of the same attitudes. Whichever way one sees it, it's good to keep things fresh, yes?

 

The whole point of this contest though would be to make a hack that goes by the standard MD Sonic rules (which nullifies every hack that does anything to the gameplay rules save with a few exceptions e.g. porting the rules from S3K to S2 or S1). Moreover, the hacks should have an emphasis on level layout, and in fact it should be pretty much the only factor that determines whether a hack wins or not.

 

We do agree on that (if indeed there is to be a contest). All I'm doing, as usual, is questioning the canned logic of the Sonic 1 spindash inclusion. If the move is wanted, why not hack Sonic 2 instead? Same goes for spike behaviour and speed cap. They're small facets that make Sonic 1 what it is, love or loathe them. All hackers know anyway to embrace limitations and get creative with them, I don't see why there's an exception for the engine shortcomings of the first Sonic is all.

 

Probably because Sonic 1 is usually considered better documented than Sonic 2 these days, so it wouldn't be surprising if somebody ended up picking up Sonic 1 just because of that.

Although you could argue that when it comes to levels, the tools are good enough for either game...

 

Selbi did that in Sonic ERaZor’s “inhuman mode”, but I think you're basically correct; I can't remember seeing a recent hack where spikes insta-kill during normal gameplay.

 

I agree with the notion that Sonic Hacking has just slowed.

I've also come to believe that the reason it feels so slow is people simply don't push out public updates. This like Sonic 2 Heroes, Megamix, Sonic Classic (before release), and some other things have rare updates. Some become so rare that typically the easiest thing to do is bookmark it, and forget about it, so when you scan through your bookmarks next time, you will see and give a simple check before removing it from your head.


I'd also like to say, I've been very interested in hacking, since before I even joined. And I've tried multiple times. I understand there is a huge time investment in this sort of thing, which I'm okay with, as I'm more than capable of dealing with.

It's just that it's really hard for me to learn from the content here because simply reading and trying on my own is just not a good learning method for me. I learn best from mentors/tutors. When people guide me, that's when it's easiest for me to soak stuff in, and I've gotten this feeling that I wont be able to get anything like that from here because it seems like everyone is pretty much okay with, "Here is the wiki, here are some instructions, here is a disassembly, and here are some tools/programs. Later."

Now I don't mean guide as in, string along every step of the way, but more of the sense of having a reliable person to consistently go up to and ask questions. If I manage to do a bunch of stuff within a period of time, but then suddenly have a slew of questions, having them answered by a single reliable person, is kinda what I mean by guide.

It's kinda akin to, "Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish, and he eats for life."

I'm not sure if that's actually the truth, since I tend to occasionally not visit retro for long periods of time, before coming back to check up on everything (ala what I said previously about bookmarking and forgetting.)

Then add on the fact that people, including me, might feel dis-attached making even harder to ask for help, and then you just might have a selection of people not even be able to start. Period.



Like it would be nice if there were classes for this kind of thing looooool.
Or a sort of teacher/student thing, which I've seen on competitive gaming forums (with a good degree of success in teaching the student a lot about the competitive style of said game and generally leveling them up a good amount to the point where they can manage on their own as they have nice grasp over everything they need, while still having a go to person just incase they come across something they don't understand.)

 

This.

 

I should really work on my hacks...bogged down with this BTEC National course. In my opinion it's people's jobs and educations keeping them too busy to do hacking that gives the "dying" illusion, which none of us can help really. Sawnik Teh Hedgehawg really needs to be worked on more...waht's taking so long is constructing layouts that don't look and play like turd. Also some experimental ASM I want to get working, the fireball stuff. Could lead to interesting projects/powerups if I can get it to work as it should.