Sonic 2 Original Music Allocations

Not sure what that has to do with anything.

The in-game version of that track loops properly, and was assigned to HPZ, replacing the MCZ 2P track. The intention to use it it was evident, and didn't require HPZ to be a cutscene-only area.

Most people didn't assume that HPZ was cutscene-only from Naka's comments anyway. Naka specifically said that it would have worked similarly to the HPZ from S&K, so people pictured it similarly: an actual level, that had cutscenes at the end.

And I don't think anyone discussed the possible implications of the Masa demo having an ending until Stealth brought it up after the remaster came out.

Actually I've been around since the Simon Wai days. Mostly as a lurker, never posted much until creating this account.

 

If you assume that Sonic Team would've assigned HPZ to have MCZ 2P's theme, if it was just an ordinary level like in the mobile port, then it makes perfect sense for the mobile port to do exactly that. Not sure what the problem is.

It kinda does, considering HPZ was being removed BEFORE the music was assigned to it. Or are you prepared to argue that Sonic Team could build an entire stage, even an S&K HPZ sized stage, in 10 days?

If it were like the S&K stage, it would've been 20 seconds long, thus track 10 would obviously fit. But that is a far cry from the two-act level it was going to be at other stages of development.

Also, you're making very broad claims about what the community thought. "Most people". "I don't think anyone discussed it". Can you REALLY make such a claim? Did you read and memorize every comment that was ever posted here about it? Even now, in the modern era, I see plenty of people arguing whether or not track 10 or MCZ 2P was the intended theme, and it's 50/50 on both sides without either one of them citing Stealth's comments as evidence.

 

I don't know whether the MCZ 2P was intended for HPZ, or if was initially assigned just as a "placeholder" until its proper song was implemented. The fact Metropolis and Wood shared the same song initially suggests some of the song assignments were placeholders.

We know further work went into HPZ after it was removed, namely the implementation of its title card and level select icon. Track 10 is no different.

Why did they do that? I don't know. But they did.

Two theories:
1) Some dev comments even said that Hidden Palace was almost finished, suggesting that more than what we saw in protos was done, but never implemented in the main build. The removal of HPZ in builds might have been intended to be temporary, with the intention of replacing it later with the full version once it was done, but in the end they ran out of time and/or cartridge space.
2) Or it was simply due to the game's chaotic development, with the devs that implemented the HPZ title card, icon and music being unaware the level had been scrapped.

Track 10 as implemented works perfectly in a two-act HPZ, seeing how it loops like all level songs.

 

What devs? Craig? Craig's a good man, but his memory has never been great. When asked by ICEKnight in 2001 whether the stage was finished or not, he said it had been too long and that he didn't remember. He then made the claim many years later that not only was it totally finished and fully playable, but that it was accessed through a secret hole in MCZ, and he's obviously confusing it with the mobile port. And why would you remove a stage's assets only to put them back in later? That makes literally no sense. And yes, it does have a title card...but it even has title cards done for Act 2, and there is absolutely no fucking way they ever intended it to have two acts that late in development.

No playtester in Sega's QA department would not have pointed out that the track was short, repetitive, slow, and irritating to listen to for an entire two-act duration. Naka and Yasuhara are not the greatest game designers in the world, but they're not so blind that they wouldn't have noticed that. I know you'll dismiss that argument based on it being "vibes" but you yourself say you don't know whether MCZ 2P was intended for HPZ or if it was just a placeholder, and if you can't objectively answer that question, then vibes are perfectly acceptable evidence here.

 

It doesn't matter. The point is, they implemented HPZ content after its removal. So your argument that "HPZ was already removed" doesn't work here.

Because if work was done on HPZ separately, the current implementation became outdated, so may as well remove it, especially if they needed more space at the time.

I had edited this into my post:
"2) Or it was simply due to the game's chaotic development, with the devs that implemented the HPZ title card, icon and music being unaware the level had been scrapped."

Not that it matters. It's not my job to speculate why they added HPZ content after it was scrapped. All that matters is they did.

Yes I will, because that's entirely subjective.

I can listen to that song for hours (not literally) and not get tired of it.

Edit: Also I checked and that song's loop lasts around 50 seconds -- longer than some level songs in fact.

I don't even know what that has to do with anything.

I'm not taking any stances on what MCZ 2P was originally intended for. Maybe it was for HPZ, maybe it wasn't. And either way it's irrelevant to the argument.

 

Then what in god's name is the argument? Are you still on Stealth's mindset when making the mobile port? I thought we had moved past that, but I guess not.

If you can accept that there was evidence on both sides at the time for whether MCZ 2P was intended for the zone or not, then you can also accept that there wasn't anything wrong with Stealth's judgement call.

It's 20-seconds before looping. The "ending" is not part of the loop, in the demo. Unless you're only focused on whatever the sound team did when converting Masa's demo to loop, in which case I still don't know what your argument is. Are you trying to argue what track was intended for HPZ or not? You keep saying you're not but then you keep trying to argue about that topic.

 

You said that we didn't have as much Sonic 2 dev material when the remaster came out, so there was more reason to believe MCZ 2P was supposed to be HPZ's song rather than track 10.

I contested that by bringing up that there was already evidence for track 10, and that it was already seen as its final song by people at large back then.

Edit:

I'm talking about the in-game implementation.



The part at 0:45 is first heard at that point. It's after it ends (at 0:50) that the song first loops.

 

"People at large" he says.

All of these people are, or were, prominent community members, and some of them are site staff (though maybe not at the time). Obviously just as many other people believed Track #10 was the intended theme, like ICEKnight, but the claim that that was "community consensus" is just plain wrong. It's always been a hotly debated topic.

 

Thanks for calling me a prominent community member! I don't why on earth I said it's a 'fact' track 10 was a cutscene track. Was I drunk? I think this was when I was misremembering my interview with Craig Stitt before I posted it.

I actually think it is very possible track ten was used for HPZ seeing as it does use it in the final but I think we have to look at the evidence of the other tracks. I put my guns down and now admit Oil Ocean Zone probably used the Casino Night 2 Player track. So it is clearly possible 2 Player tracks were originally used for levels. Seeing as HPZ used Mystic Cave in the Simon Wai build I think it is very possible it was supposed to use that track at least in that time of development.

I agree with @DefinitiveDubs that track ten is clearly short and tedious. I understand the loop at forty seconds isn't unusual but I mean just listen to it. I think the fact it has a clear ending in Masa's demo is significant. He may have gotten notes telling him to make it have a victorious sounding ending or something.

I personally believe now HPZ used Mystic Cave 2P and then used Track 10 for the end of the level when Sonic went Super. Although I don't know this for a fact lmao. To be honest track ten could have been used for anything. Any victorious fanfare reason. I don't understand why HPZ uses track ten now. Maybe someone will knowledge of the games code could offer their insight.

 

Most of those posts were post-remaster. You know, after we got Tax and Stealth's HPZ, and the latter started using the "it has an ending" argument. One of those quotes even brings up his claim, naming him.

My point was that your claim that most evidence pointed to MCZ 2P being HPZ's intended track as opposed to track 10 when the remaster started production is wrong. That is, most people didn't go "the right song is MCZ 2P, not the unused track". People had long attributed track 10 to it, most ROM hacks used it for HPZ, and it wasn't controversial.

The common view was simple: MCZ 2P was HPZ's song in early protos, track 10 was its song in the final. It wasn't contested.

As far as I recall people didn't start fully analyzing the Masa demo until the remaster and Stealth's claim.

 

You're implying that everyone who posted that opinion thought differently before Tax and Stealth posted their statements about the music on Twitter, and were now being fake as shit acting like they had that opinion all along. Tax and Stealth held a lot of clout, but not THAT much. I distinctly remember how when the demos were released, people were analyzing how the Aquatic Ruin demo "must" have been meant for the desert level, due to it sounding like a part of the theme from The Good, The Bad and the Ugly. People were definitely analyzing it before the remaster. There's an entire thread of people doing exactly that. Unless what you're saying is people stopped caring about the demos after 2011, in which case, I guess, but Sonic 2 beta news and discussion had dried up in general around that time. The topic was old and tired. Retro was more interested in Generations and Sonic 2 HD than they were in finding new development info.

Well, I posted my 12-year-old thread posts, so where's yours? ROM hacks using it for HPZ being used as evidence is silly, since said ROM hacks also used EHZ 2P for Wood Zone and ripped graphics from a totally unrelated game for Genocide City. I don't think those romhacks were actually trying to accurately recreate Sonic Team's vision.

I can accept that maybe it was the consensus back in 2004 or whatever, when we were making up theories about HPZ being a Tails-only level, but it sure as hell wasn't in the 2011-2013 era. Now stop making me dig through people's post history, I really don't enjoy it.

 

It's possible, though I don't think very likely, that the briefing Masa received at first and the assignment the person responsible for the arrangement received later were different.

As in: they could have told Masa Track 10 was for a cutscene, but by the time they got it, plans had already changed. So they told this other person to arrange it so it could fit a level to the best of their abilities.

Worth considering at least.

 

I like the idea that HPZ used MCZ2P's music but then has #10 as a special song/scenario for getting Super Sonic.

There's no real basis for it besides the conflicting information (Wai Beta featuring MCZ2P, final having #10), but it does remind me a lot of how Sonic 3 & Knuckles has Hidden Palace as a separate "cutscene" level tied to the end to Lava Reef Act 2. Maybe that was how it could've worked in Sonic 2? Again, conjecture, but a fun thought.

 

Not related to music, but something we do have to consider is that Naka's Super Sonic comment really doesn't make sense in the context of HPZ's development chronology. Based on what we know from the maps, the zone order documents, Yamaguchi, Stitt, Yasuhara's presentation, Payne's enemy design documents and the prototypes, the zone

• was initially conceived as a cutscene or a cutscene-ish "level" named Olympus which showed Sonic traveling through time, intended to take place in the Past in the same location where Oil Ocean was in Now #2
• was eventually turned into a full two-act zone with Yasuhara assigned to level design and Stitt assigned to graphics, still supposed to be a direct counterpart to Oil Ocean
• was eventually reduced to a single act zone due to time constraints
• was finally cut due to there not being enough time to conceptualize and implement a boss fight for the zone

The only place where Naka's comment would fit into is the very beginning, before any meaningful development had started. And even then it still poses several questions, such as Naka talking about the Zone being a secret only accessed after collecting all the Emeralds, whereas Yasuhara said in his presentation that it was supposed to be an inevitable story-related area where you travel through time.

Then again, couldn't it be both? That's exactly how Hidden Palace is implemented in S3&K, after all (briefly accessed whenever you seek to collect a Super Emerald, fully accessed during a mandatory portion of the main story).

 

Or... they changed their mind? People's opinions change all the time, especially on unimportant matters. We have an entire media ecosystem built on how easy it is to sway opinion. There was no accusation of malice in the original post, so it's strange you'd jump to that assumption.

 

But on what basis would you say they had changed their minds? The only way you could possibly claim that is if you produced an earlier post they had made saying the opposite opinion. Why would you assume that they changed their minds from before, just because their opinions happened to be posted after Tax and Stealth posted theirs? I'm not saying they didn't sway anyone's opinion, but assuming that they did by default, without them saying "Stealth has a point" is ridiculous. The burden of proof lies on you, not me. I mean, did everyone read Tax and Stealth's tweets? Was everyone aware of them?

I admit, maybe I should've posted more examples from before the tweet, but do I really need to post proof that the MCZ 2P vs Track 10 debate has never, EVER come to a consensus? I wasn't lurking the forums until 2011 or so, but even I know it never has.

 

My two cents?

If the ending jingle version of Sweet Sweet Sweet was written as a special surprise to Sega at the end of Masa's work on the game, maybe Track 10 was the original ending jingle?

When listening to the demo version's outro, that's the first thing that comes into my mind.

 

I'll say this. Do I think that 2P MCZ was predominantly meant for Hidden Palace Zone? Yes. I do. However, I think the final version of Sonic 2 would have had track 10 be Hidden Palace. Why? Because they wanted to use the remaining tracks for two player zones so they wouldn't be wasted. So I guess I will make my statement clear, and basically sum it up to thinking both?

It goes two fold though with a lot of these arguments people are making. If you think 2P MCZ was for Hidden Palace zone, then you cannot say that Oil Ocean zones music wasn't supposed to be 2P CNZ. You can't have both. You either admit that Hidden Palace was meant to have track 10 in the final, while Oil Ocean retains its final music as well....OR....you can claim Hidden Palace Zone was always meant to have MCZ 2P, but you have to eat it and also accept that Sand Shower was meant to have Oil Oceans. You cannot have both with the logic that is being used in this thread. It just cannot happen.

 

Well, it is about the same debate as for OOZ.
HPZ played the MCZ 2P in the beta. It plays track $10 in the final release.

They didn't need to change it because the level eventually was scrapped. But they made the effort to code the music into the game, added a proper loop, and changed it anyway.
IMO, it's a 99.99% certainty that track $10 would have been used if the level had been completed before the final release.