Sonic X Shadow Generations thread, movie level out now

Then don't quote me and say my point feels like moving goalposts. I don't speak for those other guys.

I've long been a Kishimoto hater and been puzzled by the relative absence of Unleashed and Generations level designers on Boost games, but I loved Frontiers. It takes more than one guy to tango, and a better squad of designers in general will make a difference.

 

That’s great. Hope that motivates SEGA to make leaner games with less bloat. If the next game executes what this is doing, but is wholly original with maybe 3 or so campaigns, it can be an all-timer for the series.

 

You did move goal posts when you said these guys were just more talented directors when they made the very mediocre Mario and Sonic titles from 2012 - 2019 which proves they also can have a bad day at the office. While also ignoring the difference in circumstances between Shadow Generations and the titles Kishimoto produced after Boom lost SEGA 50 million dollars and the Sonic brand got relegated to budget titles for 8 years.

So i was referring to you. Feel better now? Hope we can move forward from here.

 

The Shadow fangirls are to blame for this.

 

I don't think finding corporate mandated mini-game collections to be mediocre proves that these directors can only be as trusted as a guy who has been the lead director of the past three 3D platformer games, all of which share much of the same gameplay and level design issues.

Besides, many games are made with lower staff or budget than Sonic Team has ever had, and they can still manage to get a well made game out the door. I don't think any position ST has been in guaranteed the end product couldn't have been good; it's pretty much all on project management, scope issues and a lack of attention paid to the parts that make the ship sail.

I'd love to see how much money and time went into ShGens's production, because if it's lower than Frontiers in either way then we need to shut this angle down for good.

 

The thing though, is that we know for a fact that Frontiers did have the longest development time, and usually the longer a game is in development, the more it costs.
This also tells you that you can't just throw money at something and suddenly you have a great game, if only it was that easy.
Frontiers on top of being a new type of game was also tasked with creating new assets and making the longest sonic game ever etc

to put it another way, if Frontiers development time was spent on making a Shadow Generations game, or Sonic Dream Team game, from Kishimoto and his team, they will end up way longer game with way more content and even more polish, for as good as Shadow Generations is, it's content doesn't compare to what Frontiers had nor does it have many bosses, it's just more focused on what it tries to execute.

Anyway while your argument may have been that Kishimoto didn't have the chance or budget to prove himself, i think the opposite, Frontiers for all it's flaws was his chance to prove himself and he actually succeeded, it was the most ambitious game with tons of new ideas and stuff, and Shadow Generations wouldn't be as good without the base that Frontiers already created.

 

My argument is coming from a place of someone who has enjoyed the games Kishimoto has put out, even with their restrictions in resources.

So basically we're in agreement that Kishimoto is talented and now that he has SEGA's full weight behind his ideas, he's probably going to make something incredible? That's dope glad others agree.

 

Tbh It’s very possible this did have a lower budget than Frontiers, if only because Frontiers is a full-sized game built (mostly) from the ground up, while Shadow more blatantly reuses assets.

I know Frontiers was guilty of asset reuse too, but the game is easily like a +15 hour game where they had to completely reapproach how they build a Sonic game. Shadow is built off of the bones not only of Frontiers, but Generations and each game its levels are inspired by.

 

It's important to remember that some baffling decisions are thought of by Sonic Team to be actually good. Shorter levels, easier levels, the empty landmasses of Frontiers...you could tell the huge fan response of Frontiers finally got through some stubborn or ignorant heads, as seen by Final Horizon and now Shadow Gens lol

 

And even then, ShGens I think has more new assets in it than anything from Frontiers. All the stages are newly modeled and very intricate, and the Open Zone is very deliberately crafted, with level design for days and days. Maybe not to the level of detail seen in the OG boost trilogy (which is where budget comes in!), but it's very apparent there's something different this time.

It really backs up my point: it's about the people making it. Sonic Team needs people with an eye for art direction, with the skills to model these things, with the talent for good physics and level design. And a director needs to be concerned with these things and have an eye for bringing out the best in them. ShGens is the first time I've felt that spark since the original Gens.

And ftr I'd like to give some points to Frontiers for introducing a few of these ideas, but ultimately all it introduced (the engine, the new button scheme, the Open Zone, combat) were all streamlined and improved so hard that they're not really executed the same at all. This game is pulling much more from the Gens playbook of "how to design a map" or "how to engage the player", which not only makes sense because the people directing it, but because it's directly attached to Gens. So I can't even thank Frontiers for these changes, as much as just acknowledge that's the groundwork they had to build this over.

If we're stuck with Kishimoto for the next game, that's his proving ground. He has to keep this momentum going to prove me wrong. Otherwise.. well, I'll just say I called it.

 

So interesting note about the new layout, despite it telling you to homing attack with what was once the boost button you can still homing attack with the jump button.

Literally all the new layout does is move the boost to the right trigger.

 

That CGI and music *chef kiss*

 

On a related note, I think we're gonna have these doubts about future installments from Sonic Team for the rest of our lives.
Every release will either be met with "expected disappointment" or "pleasant surprise".
Or at the very least, for a long while.

 

It's a Sonic Team thing where great designers also come up with bad ideas. See Werehog in Unleashed being thought up by Hashimoto, as one of many many examples.

 

Finally played the game. Sonic Gens runs perfectly fine on Switch both docked and handheld but Shadow Gens' lighting and textures aren't so great and I noticed some visual effects are missing in this version. I wish I went for the PS5 version but ah well. Generations is still a great game and it's cool to have a portable version. Really hope they offer an upgrade for the Switch 2.

I've only gotten to Rail Canyon and unlocked the Doom Spear in Shadow Gens but I have to say the level of creativity and polish in this game is next level. They actually gave Shadow 360 degree mid air turning! That was one of my gripes with Frontiers. The game is awesome so far.

If I have to nitpick I wish they would bring back ledge grabbing. They had this in Adventure 2, Heroes and Shadow '05 then completely forgot about it, then they brought it back in Lost World and proceeded to forget about it again afterwards!

I just think it would make things more forgiving if you just barely miss a platform or something.

 

Man, this game hasn't even seen the best numbers yet. With the Shadow movie and the holiday sales, this could go down as the best selling sonic game ever. This also comes on the heels of Sega having their best year as a publisher ever, this is the *FOURTH* title from Sega this year to Top 1 million units right out of the gate: P3 Reloaded, ReFantazio, Like a Dragon, and now Sonic x Shadow.

And what's crazy is this was supposed to be the quiet year, it's *NEXT YEAR* that Sega is supposed to go balls to the wall. That's when their Power the Next Level stuff kicks off, with Crazy Taxi, Shinobi, Golden Axe, Streets of Rage, Jet Set Radio, and presumably a Virtua Fighter 6 reveal. Holy shit Sega is on fire right now.

 

This definitely might be an all-timer for them. Kids are gonna want Sonic and Shadow games to play after the movie, making this an extension of Generations was probably the best decision they made in order to accomplish that.

 

I did some more research now before someone says "well this game is better coded than Frontiers, which proves its a more talented team!" the programmers for this game were Kohei Moriya, Keiichi Noda, Kouichi Nomura. The same people who programmed Frontiers (albeit with other staff because how big that game was)

You can find they have entries on Sega Retro for being programmers on Frontiers.

They did not suddenly get better people involved. They literally just gave the people involved more of what they needed to thrive. Or they wouldn't be sharing so many of the same important credits.

 

That's interesting. It's almost as if they were given better direction or game design to hone their work into.

On a better note,

Sega climbing on up rn is proof word-of-mouth works. Some of these franchises had their day so long ago and/or were never that popular in their day, but got a significant boost in reputation by the people that knew their worth sharing the knowledge (COUGHand emulation making them easy accessCOUGH). You love to see it.