Not the point. The point is people are allowed to give criticism of Sonic games without attacking someone.
No need to make this about mental health just because someone criticized a game you like or whatever this is really about. What if criticizing Sonic makes me happy?
uh, here's two unpopular takes tangentially related to the current posting flurry: 1. intellectual property is a social construct and as a result i do not see the point of separating discussion of "official" sonic games and the avalanche of fangames that have been made over the last twenty years. this applies to all franchises, but it especially applies to sonic given his uniquely "committee-designed" nature. there was never, not even for one second, a singular vision for what "sonic" means, and that makes the singular focus on on sega's output as the whole of sonic's legacy even more absurd than usual - but this is often the focus that the discourse adopts. speaking at least for myself, fangames and fan content have been absolutely critical in keeping me in the fandom through the lean times, and it was by realizing this that i finally accepted the fact that sonic team is just one group of people that has an opinion about what sonic should be, and just because they have some abstract set of legal rights over the brand doesn't make their opinion more legitimate than, say, sonic team jr. speaking of that: 2. srb2 is the best 3d sonic game, and it's not close. it conclusively demonstrates that you can have a 3d platformer with a core focus on speed that does not have to constantly use automation as a crutch to maintain that speed - and it also demonstrates that if you actually sit down and build a set of levels that are interesting to explore (and don't completely snap in half if you don't exactly follow the critical path all the time), you can have a game that supports multiple characters with an extremely diverse range of abilities without the need for bespoke levels for each of them. it's not perfect (the levels could use more sign-posting, especially the ones left over from pre-2.2.), but it's genuinely amazing in so many respects and criminally under-discussed when discussing the grand legacy of "sonic-in-3d" - which, going back to my first point, is only because it's not an "official" sonic game. i do not think that its fangame status should be relevant when having a general discussion about how sonic games should play.
I love SRB2 but I wouldn't say the vanilla game's core focus is speed. What I like so much about it actually is how it broadens 3D Sonic's gameplay scope to let itself be a bit slower and more explorative if need be, as opposed to being mainly focused on speed like say the boost games. SRB2's weird Sonic 1 momentum physics just aren't very conducive to going fast all the time. You can't even go that fast in most cases without rolling, but that actually ends up being a good thing! I guess my 'unpopular opinion' here is that I don't think 'speed' counts as a proper metric for what does or doesn't make a good Sonic game.
I liked srb2 when i played it for the first time a year or so ago but its genuinely just wayyyy too slippery feeling to me and a few of the levels kind of felt like a chore. Its pretty good but I was a bit underwhelmed about how good it actually is, but i'd need to play it again somwtime to get a good proper critique of it
i should have perhaps been more precise - i agree that one of the games strengths is that it broadens the scope and allows the pace of the game to take an slower explorative approach at times. but what is remarkable about it, especially when compared to the adventure games, is that it is able to do that while also supporting a traditionally "gotta-go-fast" approach. though it's not really a "momentum-based" movement system, i do think that srb2's movement supports and encourages going fast, at least with sonic. sonic's thok is so extraordinarily powerful that mastery of it really does enable you to blast right through even the game's more massive levels, and that combined with the fact that it has proper badnik bouncing raises the game's speed-based skill ceiling immensely. i also agree that "speed" alone is not a proper metric for what makes a good sonic game - i didn't mean to imply that. what i meant was that to the extent official 3d sonic games emphasize speed, they primarily do so by shoving the player through automated set-pieces, and they became so reliant on building those bespoke set pieces that supporting multiple gameplay styles in the same levels like adventure 1 became completely untenable. case in point: compare super mario 64 generations to srb2's n64 mario mod. in the former case, generations's 3d levels clearly fall apart when you try to traverse them with anyone who does not have sonic's exact character controller. watching mario walk at normal mario speed only to be jankily accelerated to mach 7 when interacting with a set piece really lays pulls the curtain back on how much of these levels are stiched together with automation. there is just no room in generations's level design for a character who does not have (1) an instant "go-to-max-speed" button and (2) a thousand different context-sensitive reactions to the environment, badniks, and level gimmicks. i'm aware that beating super mario 64 generations is technically possible and occasionally fun, but it's fun in the way that the nuzlocke challenge is fun - not in the way that, say, playing as vergil in dmc3 is fun. in the latter case, when using a character with a moveset that is totally distinct from sonic's, srb2's levels hold up extraordinarily well. the mario mod isn't 1:1 (he does have a imo too-extreme base speed bump) but it is recognizably close enough to actual mario 64 controls that someone who was familiar with mario 64 could pick him up and play him pretty intuitively. furthermore, srb2's levels are not designed with bespoke interactions for a specific character like basically every 3d sonic game post-sa1 - instead, they have several broad categories of level interactions (spin, smash, fly, climb, etc.) and then can map those actions to character abilities as needed. this means that srb2's levels do not need a bespoke "mario route" to work - they simply mapped his moveset to the existing level interactions and he's able to fly through them as naturally as sonic would. there's a hundred other mods that drive this point home, but this dynamic can also be seen in the vanilla game, as those level interactions mean that routes through each level can be modular. there are some knuckles paths that amy and fang can take, and some they can't. there are certain spin-based obstacles that sonic, tails, and knuckles can take, but amy and fang can't. metal sonic's boost mode allows him to break through certain walls that knuckles can and take certain tails flight paths, but his inability to gain height while boosting locks him out of others. i could go on, but this post is already too long. the point is that srb2's commitment to "manual" level design rather than automation allows it to support a much more diverse range of gameplay styles at a much higher level of fidelity. you can go fast, you can explore, you can do some combination of the two, and at no point will the game just snap in half because you dared to press the spin button in the middle of a set piece (pyramid cave) or place an arbitrary invisible wall between you and a piece of otherwise navigable level geometry (emerald coast). it is a level of extensibility and freedom that has flat-out not been achieved in any official 3d game, ever - and that makes it all the more important that srb2 is a touchpoint in discussions of 3d sonic design. (edit: i do like sonic generations and think it's a good game! it is also very clearly stitched together with fishing twine, and it's worth considering if that is a good long-term gameplay model for a 3d platformer.)
SRB2's acceleration has long been a sticking point for a lot of people. The reason it feels the way it does is because it doesn't use a linear acceleration model like the classics - it's multiplicative, which feels completely different. That, plus the gravity isn't as strong, air control isn't as tight as, say, the Adventure games, and slope launching *literally halves* your Z momentum. STJR is working on a complete movement overhaul that I think feels a bit more like the classics. You can try it here: https://git.do.srb2.org/STJr/SRB2/-/merge_requests/1563
I can't agree that SRB2 is the gold standard for 3D Sonic design. For one, its level design is actually kinda bad. Sure, it's dense, and there's a lot more effort put into it than your average fangame, but unfortunately it's just not fun to play. Like, at all. While people may not agree on "what Sonic should be", I think we can all agree that a Sonic game shouldn't make you ask where the hell you're supposed to go. Even some of its current lead developers, like MotorRoach, agree with this, and they've spent the past several years attempting to completely redesign it, and recent developments show they're not even close to their goal. For the longest time, the design was hamstrung by decisions made in 1999, when it wasn't designed as a Sonic game so much as it was designed as a Doom mod where you play as Sonic. Even now, much of the level design philosophy with its alternate routes and secret areas resembles Doom a hell of a lot more than it does Sonic.
SRB2 is pretty close to being a great game, but I think it's still too twitchy and floaty for me. Id ironically like it more if it was even slower and more restrained. The level design is top notch now though. It's expansive and dense with a lot of fun little challenges seeded throughout which is what I like, and I never got the 'lost' feeling some people get from it. Reasoning out where to go is usually as simple as stopping for a second and looking around which isn't a deal breaker for me.
Oh, I like this discussion. I think it's very important. I agree that intellectual property is a social construct, and Sonic has realized what Walter Benjamin described as the process by which -- at his time -- readers become writers, and enjoying an activity entails becoming some sort of expert on it by means of needing to understand, at least to an extent, the intricacies of its language and production process of a work to enjoy it in the first place. The paradigm of player-as-author and player-as-producer is well documented and very much talked about (1, 2, 3 in a way), but I think Sonic is a great textbook case because at this point I don't think there is such thing as "Sonic" without the discourse. That is, the intergenerational community has an unusual amount of power in deciding what the core tenets are. Fan content, especially fangames, is a very strong part of it. However, I don't think intellectual properties are just a social construct. Sonic Team is the output by which every other output is measured because they have economic commitment to their games, they're in the industry and no one else can be without SEGA's approval (because a legal set of rights isn't just abstract either). The access to distribution in the industry and technology by SEGA means they'd retain an aura of authenticity over Sonic even if/when it goes public domain. SRB2 only exists in relation to Sonic Team's output, because as we know, its proposed virtues only exist in the face of Sonic Team's perceived flaws. Hypotheticals such as "what if Sonic Team Jr. had Sonic Team's budget" are meaningless because Sonic Team Jr.'s vision only exists because they don't have Sonic Team's budget, constraints and conditions. So Sonic's cultural, technical and formal identity is necessarily intersubjective. But Sonic Team's output is, and probably will always be, the center of gravity in that intersubjective dynamic.
this critique seems wildly out-of-step with the game post-2.2. the only levels i can think of that have serious signposting issues are arid canyon 1, castle eggman 1, and arguably maybe small parts of deep sea or techno hill. the post 2.2. levels are built explicitly to funnel you towards some kind of conclusion, and there are vanishingly few routes available at any given time that won't provide some kind of forward progress. it could be better, but it's far from a dealbreaker, and it certainly doesn't in any way "resemble Doom." i have no idea how you could play the modern game and come to that conclusion. maybe you personally find spatial navigation challenges more annoying than automation, but i personally prefer the freedom provided by srb2's level design to the vast majority of the official 3d output, and am happy to put up with the signposting issues that occasionally crop up because of it. that's a matter of taste - it's demonstrably not something "we can all agree" on. also, what "recent developments" are you talking about? i honestly agree with this critique - if srb2 needs anything it's reigning in the acceleration of its characters. like i said, it's not perfect, but it's a coherent vision for what sonic in 3d should look like that is, in my opinion, a more complete and stable vision than has ever been provided by sonic team.
You go back and play 1999 SRB2 and report back to me all the alternate routes and secret areas as opposed to current SRB2. Of course the Genesis games had plenty of alternate routes and secret areas but yeah sure I guess Doom also had those. Doom also had enemies and you could move fast. Should 3D Sonic forego those things just because they were things in Doom? It obviously makes sense to add more areas and more secrets when going from a 2D to 3D platformer that already had all that. Might as well use the whole extra axis you now have to work with. I just don't get the logic. You and Motorroach thinking the level design is bad isn't convincing. Both Castle Eggman acts are kinda brilliant if you ask me, even if act 2 is still unfinished.
I think SRB2 is great! I definitely agree with the physics complaints but getting into the feel of the game is quick enough that it's just a matter of personal preference, it all works pretty well. The level design being good and the level design being too labrynthine are actually not mutually-exclusive. The main problem is less that getting any individual direction is that hard, you'll get a good flow going on almost every stage (except Techno Hill 2, bleh), and more that you'll inevitably stumble into the back half of an alternate route and not know it until you link back up with the start and/or a dead-end, so there's different levels of confusion depending on which players arbitrarily chose to head RIGHT to progress through the stage or LEFT to find what looks to them like randomly-placed garbage. The game, ironic as it may seem, would do well to use an automatic camera here and there.
i agree that that is true as a fact about our current social paradigm. obviously sonic team has the cash, funding, marketing, legal legitimacy, etc. and thus will have a position of prominence in our discussions, and fan content will be made in response to their output. my point is that as participants in the discourse, we have the social responsibility to acknowledge that there is a certain artificiality to that position, and actively work against that artificiality by legitimizing "unofficial" content by including them in our discussion. i am reminded of the folding ideas world of warcraft video where he makes the point that blizzard is not the sole stakeholder in "what WoW is," and acknowledging this fact is the only way to fully understand world of warcraft as a cultural object. yes, blizzard has a lot of influence, and they have financial skin in the game, but their power to impose their vision on the game is not unlimited. "what WoW is" is ultimately a negotiated consensus between blizzard and the hardcore players, roleplayers, whales, content creators, etc. - and that's just in the context of a single game. the question of "what sonic is" (as a character and a franchise) was already a negotiated consensus between sega of america and japan (not to mention individual developers / teams within them) from day one, and the number of stakeholders in that negotiation has only grown exponentially in the 30 years we've been obsessing over this little rat. i will obviously always keep an eye on what sega is doing / sanctioning, not only because i'm personally curious but also because they are the "face" of sonic to the general public, and thus their actions have an impact on the long-term health of the fandom. but speaking for myself, by divesting sonic team of the exclusive power to decide "what sonic is," i feel like i've gained a more authentic understanding of why sonic appealed to me (and others) in the first place, and i've had a lot more fun in the fandom since.
I've never been able to get into SRB2. The game is slipperier than Heroes and I just cant seem to get comfortable with the controls no matter how hard I try, it feels really odd. The level design is ok but I just can't mesh with a game that feels so unintuitive, its a shame because I want to like it! It seems really cool but its just not fun no matter how hard I try.
Here's a possibly hot take: a good automatic camera is *always* more effective than a good manual camera when it comes to 3D Sonic. I shouldn't have to babysit the camera to get the most out of a level - it should be a supplement to a directed camera system that does most of the work for you. The challenge should be actually moving Sonic, not also angling the camera the entire time. SRB2 does pretty well without a directed camera, but games like 06 ask you to mangle the camera a lot and I'm really not a fan of that. Frontiers has a good middle ground, but the actual directed cameras in question are... not very good.
This is fair position. I think it's always important to reevaluate the weight of fan output in the consitution of the cultural object, seeing as Sonic became a genre unto itself almost as soon as it was invented due to a very specific mix of uniqueness, "challenger" position in the market and how close it all was to the transition to 3D; but I think Sonic, or classic Sonic at least, is well established in this regard. Retro is a part of that, even! But also SAGE, the way Sonic Mania exists as the ultimate validation of the notion that "Classic Sonic" exists, almost as a ghost that haunts every output and was "born" from fans, paying homage to a legacy that it ultimately shapes by existing. I understand the feeling that divesting Sonic Team of its power is necessary, but Sonic already is probably one of cultural objects in which this happens the most! In our industry model, that is.
The level design of SRB2 is outdated and lacks loop-de-loops of all the Zones. I get you guys have a nostalgia of that fangame, but I'm not gonna sugarcoat it. The soundtrack is great though.
Loop de loops really aren't necessary if you ask me. Not to mention they're still kiiinda possible in SRB2 (with automation lol).
