New Sonic 2 development lore drop - Genocide/Cyber City palette and art!

And this is what differentiate them, from us, the modest Sonic 2 development lore enjoyers <insert chad meme here>

 

actually I'd almost argue that this is inverted - that is, that other zones borrowed from Mystic Cave/Dust Hill. This was one of the earliest zones added, while Wing Fortress was relatively late - it could be that when faced with a time pressure, they reused objects for gimmicks (which nonetheless is smart game design. you don't want to constantly reinvent the wheel). Alternatively, there was always an intent to reuse gimmicks between the levels, like they do with enemies, because again, that is just smart. If both Casino Night and Mystic Cave have moving boxes, why not reuse them with new graphics to match?

 

I know a lot of people make connections to Dust Hill and Mystic Cave based on the Wai prototype and the fact "it's Dust Hill" in that build, but has anyone ever thought of the idea that Mystic Cave could potentially just be Rock World Zone?

Just thinking about it, it's an absolutely massive cave filled to the brim with moss covered rock which would make sense to give to the level named Rock World. As well as that, Rock World shows up in the 'Now 2' period on both the map for that period and the timeline detailing how the game would progress, being on the same time period as Dust Hill giving them a close proximity on the map and on their internal IDs which could potentially imply some kind of swap over? (also potentially implying that the 'Ancient Time' Rock World is potentially just its original placement, given that caves are both able to be manmade or completely natural it would have likely worked either way, but Winter Zone came along and took what could have been its intended location AND potentially its level slot).

However there's still a lot to be asked which all falls back to "Why is it on Dust Hill's slot instead of Rock World's" - I can come up with several questions that don't resolve this idea, but I'm kind of curious what others on here would hold towards this as while it's not confirmed by any means I feel like it's another potential thought on Mystic Cave's origins.

 

I feel like folks are forgetting it's not just the level select text first seen in the Simon Wai proto that links Mystic Cave to the Dust Hill name - it also persists past the point where title cards are implemented in the September 14th build, with the Zone receiving a full-on title card still reading "Dust Hill Zone". Why on earth would the devs implement that if it wasn't an intended name for the Zone occupying the slot at that point?

 

I actually didn't realize the game was made in Palo Alto, a region so far south of the SF. I had family out there and used to pass by SEGA HQ's former location regularly around the SA2 era (I spent a few weeks there in 2001 and even brought my DC with me that summer after the game came out), but it's nice to actually see a more direct representation of where Sonic 2 specifically happened. It's much more plain than what my brain had imagined, compared to the regular SEGA HQ.

 

Here's an interesting quote from Naka regarding Flying Battery Zone:

He explains that for Sonic 3, they had a large pool of music to pull from for each level. I assume that by this he means that they had a Sega track and a Michael Jackson track for each zone, and chose whichever they preferred.

However, the most interesting part here is how he specifies how they didn't have any more music than they needed for Sonic 2. This implies that either songs like Track 10 and 2P Results were indeed meant to be level themes, or that the scope of the game had already been significantly stripped back by the time the music was composed.

 

It just confirms what people already suspected: they couldn't ask Nakamura to compose more music if they needed it. Nakamura submitted one batch and that was it. Since Sonic 3 was done in-house, that means if they needed extra music if there was a big change, they could just ask an employee to do it. They couldn't do that with Nakamura, meaning they had to make compromises with music that may not necessarily fit the level it was in. It does not mean the 2P Results theme was a level theme, all it confirms is that some music in Sonic 2 wasn't where it was meant to be. We already knew this, though. What it does seem to confirm is that everything on the Sonic 1&2 Soundtrack is everything Nakamura made, and that means at least one or two zones from Yamaguchi's concept art were cut prior to composition.

By the way, I think we should have a fan community poll to name the ice level. We can't call it "Rock World" since that was likely something entirely different, but it's the only cut zone we have that doesn't at least have a working title other than "Ice". "Ice Zone" is boring.

I like the name "Winter Wonder". It's alliteration like "Sand Shower".

 

Dumb question not directly related to anything at the moment, but earlier in this thread/another thread somebody pointed out these yellow 'holes' in Emerald Hill's background:



What are they exactly? I would say this is meant to be the 'soil' in Emerald Hill, but they look more like 'holes' due to how they're placed and I swore someone wrote something theorizing about it being damage Eggman did to the Zone.

 

I mentioned it a while back, as did someone else I’m sure, but pretty much the theory was that these were caused by Eggman drilling, who uses the drill as his boss mech.

The next boss to use a drill? Mystic Cave, AKA Dust Hill Zone, which overlapped Emerald Hill Zone (AKA Green Hill Zone) on the production designs of the island map titled “Now 2”, essentially a ruined present.

The past of this zone as confirmed by the maps would have been Hill Top Zone, so I speculate that Eggman destroyed the large red mountains in his drilling / destruction of the landscape, which also match the background mountains as seen in Emerald Hill Zone.

IIRC the Japanese manual states that Eggman is destroying the island in his search for the Chaos Emeralds, so Mystic Cave Zone would literally be a cave system with rail tracks for excavation and thus what remains of the ‘dust’ of Emerald Hill / Hill Top.

 

Uh, no? If we don't know the actual name we shouldn't be making up new names out of nowhere just because the placeholder is "boring". Plus isn't it usually known as Winter Zone? What's wrong with that?

 

We should go back to naming prototypes after events. Gamesmaster Beta anyone?

 

Isn't that Sonic 1 though?

Also, I wouldn't look too deep into this. Hill Top and Oil Ocean both have submarine bosses, even though said levels aren't connected in the slightest.

 

As a kid I always thought they were sand pits, like at a golf course.

 

Nick Arcade Prototype, US Toy Fair Prototype, August Alpha since that doesn't have an event associated with it... stuff like that?

 

Nah, the US version of Sonic 2's manual has a small blurb about this, though the Japanese manual completely removes that.

See that's what I went with too, but after reading the 'drilling' theory I do kinda wonder if they were going for something implying that Eggman has damaged some of the area and then that...just kinda got lost when the Time Travel aspect of the plot was dropped? Like there was intended to be some sort of 'payoff' to seeing a completely ruined Emerald Hill that was mined to the point where the area wasn't safe to traverse/nearly unrecognizable.

Probably not considering it sounds like communication on how a level should look was a mess initially.

If it did have any weight to it though, it would strengthen the idea that Mystic Cave was meant to be a 'Ruined Emerald Hill' at some point.

 

Again, I would totally buy this idea that Dust Hill was initially supposed to be a ruined and eroded version of Emerald Hill that had been dug out by Eggman and later evolved into a completely separate cave level - but Madness Mountain and Naka's quote about the haunted house theme put so many holes into this theory.

 

Honestly I could buy the idea that the 'Haunted House' idea was that it was meant to be some sort of attraction built on-top of Green Hill (Madness Mountain), they decide the idea is too much of a departure from 'ruined Green Hill', and then quickly reworked it with the idea of it being an area around Green Hill/underneath Green Hill? It would explain the 'haunted house' music, as Nakamura wrote it for the MMZ art he was shown.

Naka in that quote was kinda admitting the team couldn't get a more fitting theme from Nakamura since they got all the music in one big batch and kinda had to go with that since it still sounded fitting enough for the area with the darker environment. The change in scenery could also have something to do with Time Travel being yanked around the time the art was being produced for that Zone, so the 'haunted house over peaceful area' idea was no longer justifiable in the middle of the adventure.

I don't entirely doubt Sonic 2 was meant to have more cutscenes akin to 3K where the control is robbed from the player to have a small cinematic explaining the transition into the next Zone. I could buy that a cutscene might have potentially explained the transition into Mystic Cave after returning to the Present a little nicer? Depending on when Time Travel was dropped, exactly.

 

diamond dust is a real meteorological condition related to cold climates
the zone name there isn't two nouns, "diamond" + "dust"; it's one, "diamond dust"

 

...Isn't this the exact same forum that named this thing "Wechnia"?

 

If my memory serves me correctly, I think that was named over at Sonic CulT. In this case, that thing doesn't have a name, and Wechnia (or Wechidna) is just a nickname for it. As for the winter zone, please, let us not make up bullshit names. This isn't 2004 anymore.

That indeed is an assumption that he was implicitly mentioning MJ's team's work in that statement. We can only at best be sure he was referring at least to SEGA Sound Team if nothing else. Some of these quotes are questionably translated, perhaps it should be re-translated.