Sonic Origins Collection - General Thread

Sonic Adventure's Angel Island is too different (smaller, especially) for me to consider it the same as Sonic 3's Angel Island. I don't think Knuckles moving the Master Emerald is the cause for the change of location, as flashbacks establish that the Master Emerald had always been there.

From my understanding, Sonic Adventure essentially is a sequel to a continuity loosely based on the Mega Drive continuity. But Ian Flynn probably disagrees, as I recall reading him saying that everything's in the same continuity. Makes me wonder how he'd explain Sonic Triple Trouble.

 

Given how things went these last few years with Classic & Modern games, I'd also prefer things being treated that way.
A revamp of the classic events in a way that'd fit in how things were portrayed from SA1 onwards.
That way the classic side of events could keep being its own thing without screwing up the overall continuity further.

Characters, emeralds, locations, everything suffered a tremendous aesthetic makeover for SA1 onwards, only making things awkward nowadays.

 

I’m fine chalking up the differences in Angel Island to stylization. The classic games have a surrealist cartoony look, adventure 1 went for a realistic look. If locations from either game showed up in a game with a different art style, then the location’s appearance would be altered to fit in the new game’s style. Therefore I would be totally down with more Origins cutscenes to bridge the gap between 3K and Adventure.

As for Triple Trouble, my gut tells me that all the game gear games are non-canon… though I would not be opposed to new Tyson Hesse cutscenes that’s try and convince me otherwise ;p

 

"But in Triple Trouble, basically what happens is that everyone had, like, amnesia." - Ian Flynn

Seriously though, not sure if Ian Flynn's said anything on 8-Bit games other than Sonic 1 just being another adventure after the original without searching the continuity thread or his podcast, though I guess we could safely write off Mean Bean and Spinball. Their inclusion could be a neat excuse to throw in some timeline placement lore, much like how Origins finally confirmed where SCD fits in. When else does this stuff come up for those games?

IDK if it's weird in hindsight we went from someone at Sonic Team dismissing the 8-Bit games when asked if their levels would be in Generations, or apparently other times in interviews dismissing them in some way, to them openly being a part of their big, special canonical remastered collection calling itself the very origins of Sonic himself, the only other games chosen to represent that, even. I guess people change.

 

He's said that the Game Gear games are canon. Sonic Spinball is also canon. Mean Bean Machine is not canon.

This codification of the Sonic canon is a recent development, the lore team was only formed a year or two (?) ago.

 

The weirdest thing about Angel Island in Adventure is how you can't see most of Sonic 3's geography in it, but even that isn't that big of a deal to me, I can see why the developers wouldn't waste time and resources making shit like a desert or a mushroom valley that you can see on the CGI model for Angel Island we see in like, less than a minute of cutscenes.

I wouldn't complain if they showed the Adventure shrine in Origins tho. To me it makes sense that the M.E was moved to Hidden Palace only after Chaos' rampage, and that it was moved back to the Adventure Shrine after Hidden Palace collapsed... at least that was what I thought before Mania came out, but I guess the conveyor belts and other stuff implies he was messing with the place during the game, so maybe Knuckles just thought there was no point in keeping it there anymore and decided to move it like we saw in Mania Adventures.

Anyway, in the perfect world we would be getting a little cameo from the Adventure Shrine in the game, that's all I'm saying

 

SA's Angel Island is the same island it is just you don't go through most of the island. So it seems smaller but I don't think it is in reality. You even see Ice Cap - the exact same zone. You also see Red Mountain and Sand Hill, which evoke Lava Reef and Sandopolis. It's clearly been redesigned a bit (emerald shrine) and has a different aesthetic but it is the same island.

I'd say Sonic Adventure is a pretty direct sequel all things considered for a Sonic game. Clearly references Knuckles in Sonic 3 and Amy and Metal Sonic in CD. And not just as passing references but the character relations and past events directly affect their stories.

Other Sonic sequels are stranger to me. I felt SA2 was a weird sequel to SA1. It only references the events of SA1 halfway through the game and in a largely inconsequential manner. I guess Tails has progressed in his independence path but I also think he comes across as almost a completely different character apart from some key scenes (the fake emerald).

I've always thought Sonic 2 is an odd sequel to Sonic 1 too, with Tails and the Death Egg not even being introduced in the game. Eggman also recovers from his defeat in Sonic 1 with no explanation. It just picks up as if Sonic 1 never happened. It's not really unusual for games of the time but it always seemed odd to me.

 

I thought the master system and game gear games were a retelling of some events mixed with exclusive titles. Triple Trouble could easily be a missing part of Sonic 3&K.

 

Not to be pedantic, but Sand Hill is only part of the Mystic Ruins. The jungle/temple area doesn't make any contact with Angel Island, and the left wall is the same one that the minecart track runs through from the mainland.

 

Yeah, I always saw the updated Angel Island as a way for the developers or artists to not spend the resources to make an island half the size of Australia.

The only thing that I'm not a fan of is that the altar is on the edge of the island now which makes it vulnerable to virtually every enemy that attacks it. (Which probably why it made the hidden palace a necessity in a retrospective kind of way)





From Sonic Adventure I always thought the altar was closer to the mountains and above the main ground of the rest of the island to nest it better.

Though I guess in the past the altar was close to the main echidna temple, so after the mass that became the island rose to sky I guess it means it has to be closer to the edge?

Hence why the Mystic Ruins temple has a cliff in front of it? Though wouldn't the island falling connect the two areas again?

That part has always confused me.

 

Angel Island was floating for thousands of years, it's fair to assume it could have shifted a bit. Really it's just lucky it shifted toward the sea and didn't destroy miles of wildlife when it fell. All we see get crushed in SA1 is one tree.

 

This is what I also mean in picture form.

But you're right, things can shift after a thousand years and the island doesn't necessarily need to fall on the same spot it was. Willing to bet there's also some changes behind the scenes in how it's depicted since Sonic X.

Back to Origins, I wonder if Amy is going to get extra missions or if there just not going to add anything extra in that area.

 

I can easily see them taking advantage of the new additions and seeing the Missions as necessary gaps to fill. Though on the other hand, maybe that would've been a marketing point of Plus if that were the case (tho it is much smaller than new games/characters) and it could make the Missions uneven between games if they include Knuckles in SCD ones.

Ooh, which BumbleKast did he say that they're all canon? And I meant having two slightly different interpretations of the same story in two versions of Spinball, only one existing logically.

 

I wonder what Amy's intro cutscene will be in 3K? Will they make it the same as Tails; she pilots the Tornado, lands it and then the game starts. Or will they make it like Sonic's intro; Knuckles punches Super Amy and steals the emeralds. Of course I'm assuming Amy will be able to turn Super (and hopefully Hyper). Imagine the shit-storm if SEGA have mandated not to allow her a super form... I do think she will get one. Actually, on that note if she does get a super form in 3K then she should also get one in Sonic 2, and if she can go super in S2 then SEGA should finally allow Tails to go super in S2 as well (without the need to enable debug mode)!

As for a hyper form maybe Amy can have her own "army of death". Tails has flickies so perhaps she can have Cream & Chao, heh.

Maybe she have a completely different intro for 3K? I mean S, T & K all have a unique intro so perhaps she should as well?

I also want all four remasters to have Amy (& Tails AI) playable combo option.

 

I really hope they let us pick any hero and sidekick pair.

This is something that they should have done in the mobile remakes and in Mania. Although we did finally get the option in Mania's Encore, so hopefully that code isn't too hard to port over...

 

I guess the reason we don't have that is sonic 3k, if you have knuckles as a sidekick you could break onto his route and potentially get yourself soft locked. Similar problem with knuckles and tails as tails could airlift knuckles onto sonic's path. I'm guessing that's why a few features that should just be in the game are cheats, as it means any bugs these introduce can be shrugged off. Adding them to a proper menu probably would make quality assurance actually check them. I have no idea how QA works but I guess at somepoint there has to be a distinction between cheat codes and the game proper and perhaps this allowed them to cut corners on the rushed development.

I'm hoping with all the patches and bugfixing that will be in plus they've had time to put at least some of them in the game proper.

elemental shields in sonic 1 and 2 would be so awesome, blew my mind when I discovered that in the ios versions. There was a way you could glitch them onto a save but I'd like to be able to do it legitimately.

 

For what it’s worth they’ve already accounted for this in & Knuckles mode in Mania. Partner Knuckles can’t break walls for you. But ya I’d also prefer a choose your own partner mechanic. Like really Mania? No Mighty & Ray mode? For shame.

And while I’d love a new S3K intro… idk they didn’t bother for Mighty and Ray in Mania I bet they’ll just have Sonic pilot the tornado for Amy like how he did for Mighty and Ray.

They might do something for CD though since playing as Amy literally changes the story. And they’re apparently adding new paths so I’m willing to guess CDs getting the most work out into it (which makes sense out of the bunch it’s the oldest, it should’ve had more attention put into it in Origins)

 

If they let you switch between hero and sidekick on the fly (like they do in Mania encore) that makes soft locking less of an issue, because you can just switch to the sidekick and use their skills to escape the route.

Also, in Mania Encore, you can go a Knuckles' exclusive route. And it's possible to have a situation where Knuckles dies, and you are stuck with Sonic and Mighty. It's not a big deal, as you can usually figure a way to get back to the main path.

But if it's really a big problem, they can just hide the custom "hero & sidekick" option behind a cheat. I'd much rather have the option and have to put up with a few fringe soft-lock cases (which will probably never happen), then not have the option at all.

I'm guessing that's Sega's reasoning. But, Sega could make it that once you enter the cheat, the option gets permanently added to a cheats menu, so you don’t have to keep on cumbersomly entering sound test codes (which is just a horrid experience to do all the time).

The cheats menu itself could be something you unlock with 100 coins (or even a cheat code). And the menu has a warning state that these cheats may bork the game, so use pause > reset to get things back to normal.

Gmail used to do this. It had an "experiments" feature that was buried away with a warning that it might cause bugs. I think users have more capabilities for these things than Sega gives them credit for (especially considering users put up with a load of bugs in Origins when it first came out...).

That's a shame. Part of the fun would be using sidekick Knuckles to let Sonic/Tails get into places where they shouldn't be. (And if the player gets stuck, they could just let you switch to Knuckles on the fly).

 

Assuming Sonic Mania actually happened and isn't an illusion as Sonic Forces would otherwise suggest with the Phantom Ruby...

Only in the ancient past, 3000 years ago. It can easily be established that the Master Emerald was moved in the interim and Knuckles moved it back some time between the Classic and Adventure Eras.

It's on the edge since Pachacamac's village was in front of it in the past, but if you follow the same path it leads to an open ocean after the island crashed down.

So ironically, it's one of the most consistent points of canon thus far...