I was wondering something about the Michael Jackson/Sonic 3 thing... is Launch Base Zone supposed to sound like any of his songs??

I read somewhere that someone thought parts resembled "Smooth Criminal", but I have no idea what the hell they're talking about... I can't hear a resemblance at all.

Anyone know?

No. No songs seem to resemble Launch Base.

Ice Cap is the one that bears resemblance to Smooth Criminal. I originaly pointed it out.

After hearing the comparisons between Stranger In Moscow and the ending credits, I have to wonder...

How did that slip by unnoticed for an entire decade?? They're almost the same song!

I guess no one here ever listened to as much Michael Jackson as I did :P I was just listening to the song one night, doing my homework, and I sat bolt upright and said "Holy shit, this is the Sonic 3 Credits music!" and I posted about it, and everyone was like "zomg".

Very interesting stuff.

So far it's...

Carnival Night Zone - Jam
Ice Cap Zone - Who Is It (Smooth Criminal)
Launch Base Zone - ???
Credits - Stranger in Moscow

I include LBZ because, like the other three the theme was completely removed from the PC version.

Don't forget knuckles' theme and the half-time boss in AIZ

Yeah, I was GOING to list those, but I'm honestly not sure if they actually count, seeing as they aren't even in S&K iirc. lol read edit

EDIT:

I'm A FUCKING IDIOT AND I CAN'T BELIEVE I JUST NOTICED THIS NOW.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=4DBTXKKsNxM

Michael Jackson's "Blood on the Dance Floor".

Listen to the percussion and tell me that isn't almost exactly Knux's theme from S3.

Wow....It really is close to the real thing.

To quote Shade:
"zOMG!" =P

I'm sorry, but Sonic 3 tunes have only the vaguest of similarities (if any) to Michael Jackson songs. I think you people are hearing what you want, or expect, to hear. For example, "Blood on the Dancefloor" has a similar-sounding drum beat to the one in Knuckles' theme, but that's pretty much where the similarity ends.

What? That doesn't sound "exactly like it" -- they aren't even remotely similar. The ONLY comparison you could draw between the two is the drum samples used, and even then, that's hardly worth noting.

Hell, even the backbeat isn't the same. None of it is.

How do I failed hearing?

That's... not even close.

Regardless of wether or not some people make stretches in this oft-debated connection between MJ and Sonic 3, the undisputable fact is that people who have worked with Jackson on albums both pre and post Sonic 3, are credited in Sonic 3. It is not implausible that certain MJ songs could, and occasionaly do, bear resemblance to music in Sonic 3.

Plus, you'd be hard pressed to argue against the Stranger in Moscow thing. We've established this.

The theory for Who Is It holds a ton of weight too, that speed up shows they're ridiculously close to being the same damn song.

EDIT: And for Blood on the Dance Floor, that drum bit was exactly what I was talking about.

And that drum bit sounds nothing like the song, so I don't know what kind of shit you're on.

I'd do this myself if I had the materials, but... does anyone have the ability to do an overlay? Basically starting with one, fading into just the other, then the two together? (Similar to how Ice Cap Zone and Who Is It were done in the Jimbo video)

Overlaying something doesn't automatically make it the same song... Hundreds of songs share a common beat, does that mean they're all in Sonic 3?

nonono, I meant that so as to compare the two percussive tracks (which is also the entirety for Knux's theme).

When I get some time I'll try to put it together and see what people think.

I'm in 100% agreence, seeing as Roger Hector himself said the MJ songs were totally scrapped.

Perhaps the ones that were made by MJ himself were, but those by his team remained? I dunno.

Actually, I could see if Scirocco knows anything about that particular bit.

Yeah, but again, Stranger in Moscow. I don't have speakers at the moment to check the other stuff(School PC. :< )I showed it to some friends in my dorm, didn't fully explain what was up at first to get their reactions, and they were like "Holy shit, did MJ just completely rip that off from there, or vice versa?" I think there is still SOMETHING there, even if its just that. There's no way in hell both the S3 credits and Stranger in Moscow are going to have the exact same note progression(for lack of a better term) by pure coincidence. As for the Sega/Sonic Team brass saying that its gone, they could easily say it is in order to prevent a whole swarm of questions from coming their way about what was originally planned for Sonic 3. Plus I'm sure game magazines would even take interest if Sega outright admitted "Yes, MJ actually DID make some of S3's music." Plus the "Come on!" shouts in mini-boss music, and the shouts in other zones. Those vaguely sound like MJ(as best as it can through Sega anyway.) Call me stubborn or whatever else you want, but while I can agree that some zones don't sound like MJ's music, I will not buy it that its all gone completely.

I think the one thing that has to be clarified, though, is this..

Even if ALL the music in S3 were done by MJ, it doesn't neccessarily follow that the tunes will sound like his other tracks.

I mean, Dreams Come True (or at least "Guy from DCT".. forgot his name) did Sonic 1+2, and at best we've found about 3 of their songs that sound vaguely like (or identical!) to the Sonic tracks.

Near enough all of MJ's albums sound different to the next, why would the Sonic 3 soundtrack, therefore, sound the same as any other?

Its possible that his other sound staff put music in, but not any of the ORIGINALLY COMPOSED, NON COVERED material that MJ did for the game

Masato Nakamura - he's the bassist for DCT.


Yeah, it was his staff, not himself. I'm fairly sure I established this months ago, but I guess not...

We've found connections between the sound credits listed in Sonic 3, and the sound credits in the MJ albums which contained similarities to Sonic 3. I believe the only sure match we found was Cirocco/Scirocco, though.

Here's an old post wrote in another Michael Jackson music thread on March 20, 2006. The purpose of copy and pasting this post is for reference purposes only (instead of digging through 16 pages of the old thread).

-----

Doug Grigsby III, not registered with BMI, nor ASCAP. He was involved as a musician on the keyboard for the movie "Ghosts" (1997) with Michael Jackson.

Bobby Brooks (name might be "Robert Sharon Brooks") is registered at BMI and ASCAP. He too was involved with the movie above.

Darryl Ross, not sure about. Registered in BMI with middle names "Lee" or "Edward" or no middle name. At ASCAP, there's a writer named Darryl Ross Neudorf. According to IMDB, he was only credited as the composer of Sonic 3.

Brad Buxer is not registered with BMI, nor ASCAP. He too was involved with the Michael Jackson movie "Ghosts." He also did the movie "Dangerous: The Short Films" (1993) and "Black or White" (1991).

*Geoff Grace, registered in BMI with the initial middle name "R" and is registered at PRS (Performing Right Society) as suggested at ASCAP. At PRS, he is named "Geoffery Trevor Grace." According to IMDB, he is part of a "pre-production" movie "Fingers Walking" (2005) as composer.

Cirocco is registered in BMI as Adrion Charles Cirocco and is credited to composing original music for the movie "Tapped Out" (2003). It appears the only reason Cirocco appears on BMI is because Cirocco is also the name for "Jones Charles Edgar Blair."


A website called Music Powers has the following information below with two composers and Michael Jackson as the artist:

Artist: Michael Jackson
Song: ?The Water? Sonic Cues ? (levels 2 & 3)
Company: MJJ / Pebbles Music / Sega Corporation
Project: Sonic The Hedgehog ? Game theme music cues
Role: Programmer, Additional Production by Cirocco and Arranger-Composer (with Brad Buxer)

-----

So, do I think MJ did any music for Sonic 3? Maybe not, or perhaps he participated indirectly in the sense that the staff asked for suggestions from Jackson on melodies.

Why did Sega hire these staff members?

Did any of these staff members participate in creating music for other games prior to Sonic 3? If so, then that may one reason why Sega hired them. If not, then maybe the music of Michael Jackson influenced the decision of the producers of Sonic 3 to hire the staff.

If that's the case, why is Jackson not credited in the game? Perhaps Sega does not wish to become associated with Jackson and scandals related to him.

Would any hint of association with Jackson today tarnish the reputation of Sega? Most probably not, since it's been over a decade ago (although that's just my guess).

If Jackson was indeed not involved in the creation of any musical cues from the game, indirectly or otherwise (and assuming that the latest interview with Jason Kuo was truthful), then why were these specific people chosen to create the music?

------------------------------------------------
*Incidentally, I've checked APM (Associated Production Music) and there is stock music by "Trevor Grace." Probably not the same person, but what I found is that Trevor Grace composed children's music for 'Carlin' (a production music library).

For the IMDB info on "Ghosts"
For the IMDB info on "Tapped Out"
For the IMDB info on "Fingers Walking" (pre-production)
For the IMDB info on "Dangerous: The Short Films"
For the IMDB info on "Black or White"

For the BMI info on Bobby Brooks and from ASCAP on Bobby Brooks
For the BMI info on Darryl Ross and from ASCAP on Darryl Ross
For the BMI info on Geoff Grace and from ASCAP on Geoff Grace (only the mention of "PRS")
For the BMI info on Cirocco

For the record, I'm still in contact with Scirocco, he tells me he's looking to see if he can find/get a hold of "The Water". If we're lucky we may see something interesting come out of this.

Um. MJ did not do the music himself (directed at T.Q). All of what he composed was original and not covered material! Roger Hector has said this on a number of occasions!

some guy from australian idol did a cover of "U2 Vertigo" that sounded just like the sonic 3 ending music. that was an OMG! moment for shure

Got a recording of that at all around? I'd like to see that for myself.

I could maybe get the video off the official website if it's still on there

We know from Roger Hector's interview that MJ was supposed to do the music for Sonic 3 but was booted because of the scandal that errupted 3 months before the game was released. We also know from the credits of Sonic 3 that the people credited with the soundtrack's composition were associated with Jackson at one time or another. From this alone, we can derive a limited number of possible scenarios.

1. Jackson was brought in with a team of friends to write the soundtrack, was singularly booted, and the friends completed the soundtrack alone.
Very likely. It best explains Roger Hector's initial statements as well as the presence of Jackson's associates in the credits.

2. Jackson came in alone, was booted, but in his departure hooked up Sega with his friends who wrote the soundtrack instead.
Not especially likely. It's hard to believe that Sega would have wanted much from Jackson after the scandal, but someone may have listened if he named some good people to do the job in his place.

3. Jackson came in with friends to write the soundtrack together, was booted, but told friends to use his music with theirs anyway after he left and just not give him credit for it.
Fairly likely. The best argument that those who think Jackson's music remains in Sonic 3 have. This could only be proved or disproved by a testament from either one of those credited or Jackson himself.

4. Jackson came in with friends, and the friends were going to do pretty much all of the work anyway and just give credit to Jackson. When Jackson left, the only reshuffling that had to be done was in credit assignment.
Somewhat likely. From the start of Jackson's solo career, he only wrote about 1/3 of the songs on his albums. It doesn't seem like much of a stretch to say that he would let something like this happen.

5. Jackson came in alone, wrote all the music, was booted, but arranged so that his music could be preserved by means of giving credit to a bunch of his no-name friends.
Somewhat likely. It's hard to reason why Jackson would have distributed the credit so widely, and it's also hard to suggest that he would let so much material pass out of his hands. Still possible, but probably just wishful thinking for hardcore Jackson fans.



So here's what I think:

I suspect it's number 3. To begin, take a look at the End Credits/Stranger in Moscow relationship. There's no denying how close they are. Now consider this: Stranger in Moscow is listed as being entirely written, composed and arranged by Jackson alone, and furthermore, the wikipedia article states that he wrote it while feeling lonely in Moscow while on tour. I highly doubt that some friend who would have written the song in Sonic 3 would have been there to give the chord structure to him at the time that he wrote it. Not to mention, Ice Cap Zone is indeed extremely similar to Who Is It, and that song as well is listed as being written, composed, and arranged by Jackson alone. Perhaps it's possible that friends gave him both of those melodies to use in his songs, but as a quick glance at the liner notes of Jackson albums shows, it looks like people who contributed to Jackson's albums were given credit for it.

Now what I really want all of you to do is take a step back and simply try to feel the style of some of these songs. Listen to the whole Sonic 3 soundtrack like this, and then go listen to all the songs that Jackson alone supposedly wrote across his whole discography (available via bittorrent). Now, I will begin by saying that some of the songs in Sonic 3 are too melodic and advanced to sound like MJ originals, which is why I suspect that his friends, the ones in the credits, came in with him in the beginning. But have a good long listen to the music from the 2P level select screen. This song, in my opinion, has not been discussed enough in this whole MJ/S3 affair. Now consider this:

1. The song structure and melody is, overall, pretty simple. Just like Ice Cap, Launch Base, and the end credits - the songs many of us suspect Jackson wrote - and just like all the songs Jackson wrote on his albums.

2. The second part of the song reeks with Jackson's musical style. Hear that semi-percussion instrument that first sounds on the beat, but then makes an offbeat, hiccup-like follow-up immediately afterward? Jackson, Jackson, Jackson.

3. This song was cut from the PC version of the game even though it does not contain a single instrument that could not be fairly accurately reproduced with MIDI.

Finally, Jackson has been said to be a little bit crazy by just about everyone, but he's also been said to be a fairly charitable guy, and that goes for his music as well. So in light of all the musical similarities, I believe that Jackson was invited by Sega to compose the music for Sonic 3, came in with a bunch of friends to help him tackle the large project, was kicked off when the scandals arose, and told the friends to go ahead and include his music in some form or another without giving him any credit. Years later, Roger Hector let it slide that Jackson was supposed to do the music for Sonic 3 but was canned, and then either out of trying to save his own ass or out of sheer ignorance, denies that Jackson's music ever made it into the game. Out of fear of legal trouble, nobody else says a goddamn thing, and the rest of us just sit here wondering.

Of course, this is just my opinion. I could be wrong.

hxc, I'm sorry if I missed it before, but if you want to post any of Roger Hector's follow up comments verbatim in order to counter my arguments, by all means, please do.

And Witeoutking, it just so happens that "The Water", assuming this means Hydropolis zone, happens to be my favorite cut from the whole Sonic 3 soundtrack (specifically, the remix from the 2nd act). If you manage to politely bug Scirocco to the point that he gives you an original concept mix of this song, I will personally arrange for the pornstar of your choice to pull up to your house in a stretch limo and fuck your brains out for 2 hours. Either that, or I'll send you a PM jam PACKED with smileys.

I actually think "Who Is It" holds the percussion of AIZ, and the ending of that song sounds like ICZ's. But you can take my theories with some salt grains.

Heh... well, it's pretty well assumed it means Hydrocity Zone, but then who knows, according to Scirocco, MJ called him up once in a while and left messages on his machine with ideas for stuff to use. Unfortunately, that stuff in particular I wouldn't be able to get a hold of unless I got in touch with MJ himself and sorted out the matter, and considering he was booted for the incidents that happened around then, odds are he wouldn't take too kindly to that. On the other hand, no telling what he'd do for a HUEG fan like myself ;P

See, now that's some interesting stuff. It proves that Jackson and others were definitely working on the project together. What would be really interesting would be to see if Scirocco remembers the other guys on the team, and specifically, if he doesn't remember someone who is listed in the credits. I think there is a very significant chance that if Jackson wanted to leave behind some of his compositions, he would have literally given the credit to someone else and had his name inserted into the credit roll. It's not unusual for musicians to do that stuff.

Another thing this reveals is that the group working on the project was not grounded in one place. Roger Hector saying that MJ's work didn't make it in would have some clout if everyone involved had been strictly working in one studio in or nearby STI where Hector could have seen the process. If they were talking about stuff over the phone, then who is to say that Jackson couldn't have had input into any or every other composition that other team members did?

You know what I think is really sad about this? I bet Jackson was having a lot of fun writing this soundtrack. The pressure on him to produce somthing really great and cutting edge was probably lower than with his full-fledged albums, and that would have let him relax and focus on composing whatever good songs he could come up with. We see him taking the time to call people just to talk about ideas, we see him wandering around development offices just to see what is happening...he was probably pretty excited about the whole thing. Then the scandals broke out, and he got canned. Did he deserve it? Maybe. But if he didn't commit those crimes, then what happened to him was almost cruel.

Just like with the scandals, MJ himself is probably the only one who can say what really happened. I wonder, though, if MJ and/or his press people have addressed or will address this case?

MJ's lawyers possess the only taped copy of the original music composed, Roger Hector handed that over. They have never addressed the case; we have only known about it as Roger Hector told us so.

So, his songs still remain in some form? I know we'll most likely never get ahold of that tape, but I guess it's just nice to know it exists somewhere (that is, assuming it's not been destoyed after all these years)...

It might, it might not, I have no idea.

Yeah I'm thinking of putting together an article all about this stuff on SRZ at some point considering I've been working really hard on that site at the moment.

Scirocco is our strongest link definatly, I really hope he still has a copy of "The Water" still. It truely is amazing this treasure trove of secres went unnoticed for over 10 years.

And yes I'm posting again DUM DUM DUUUUM.

WTF? Welcome back.

I'll get the booze if QJim announces his return. =P
Welcome back, if you are, indeed, back!

Cheers!!!!

I'm drunk BTW....

oh and also...for those that didn't see the similarity in that drum beat on blood on the dance floor, listen at around 1:37 and you'll hear the exact same beat.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=4DBTXKKsNxM

ALERT THE INTERNET

<3 Welcome back

Ithink I found what sng relates to Launch Base Zone. Listen to "the way you make me feel" at the begining and it should sound slightly like launch base zone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09791ypOcZ8

no, I just listened to the whole thing again, and I think the whole song kinda' sounds like launch base not just the starting.

The song has a similar style, yes, but otherwise I see absolutely no resemblance to Launch Base. At all.

You need to stop LOOKING for similarities. Honestly, the first find was awesome and all, but you shouldn't have to LOOK for them -- if any more exist, we'll find them without trying.

At 1:46 of the music video of Blood on The Dance Floor you hear this

Blood On The Dance Floor:
<a href="http://www.fileden.com/files/2006/12/20/535465/Blood%20on%20the%20dance%20floor.wav" title="Blood on the dance floor.wav"> Blood on the dance floor.wav </a> <br /><a href="http://www.fileden.com">Free file hosting from File Den</a>

Knuckles Theme:
<a href="http://www.fileden.com/files/2006/12/20/535465/Knuckles%20Theme%281%29.wav" title="Knuckles Theme(1).wav"> Knuckles Theme(1).wav </a> <br /><a href="http://www.fileden.com">Free file hosting from File Den</a>

*puts his hand on his on his forehead* Oh lord.. >.> Not this..

It's not bad, but it's too short to be conclusive I guess.

Put em together you get this

Comparison:
<a href="http://www.fileden.com/files/2006/12/20/535465/Comparison.wav" title="Comparison.wav"> Comparison.wav </a> <br /><a href="http://www.fileden.com">Free file hosting from File Den</a>