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New Crackers Sprites Found in Yuu Yuu Hakusho: Makyou Toitsusen

#16 User is offline Cooljerk 

Posted 19 July 2017 - 09:51 PM

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View PostICEknight, on 19 July 2017 - 01:55 PM, said:

View PostBlazeHedgehog, on 18 July 2017 - 08:41 PM, said:

In the case of this ROM, the Crackers sprites are simply whatever wasn't overwritten yet. These games were stored on test cartridges, which would get data from a PC and write them to the cart for testing on Sega Genesis hardware. That means that, at some point in the past, before YYH was written to the test cart, it was used to test Sonic Crackers, and since the YYH game data was smaller than the Crackers prototype, the Crackers data hung around.

View Postdrx, on 05 August 2009 - 09:02 AM, said:

This is not actually true. There is no way this could physically happen. They are leftovers from the compiling process.

View Postdrx, on 08 August 2009 - 06:49 PM, said:

There is no way to erase an EPROM this way. EPROMs are erased wholly. You would have to be very surgical about it to leave holes like that. Plus, these leftovers are always in place of large packs of 00s (padding).



So which one is it?


It's definitely uninitialized memory from compilation. Like DRX said, when you flash an eeprom, you flash the entire thing. The previous crackers art comes from compilation when they pad the rom to a specific size. If the data is just junk anyways and not meant to be read, it doesn't really matter if you initialize the data first or not because it's unused anyways. Usually, compilers have options to fill uninitialized memory with values that make it easy to identify, like making all values 0xDEADBEEF or similar. But that could take time. if you're just doing a quick test, it wouldn't have been necessary.

Due to the way EEPROM flashing works, you can be assured the data isn't "bleeding through" from a previous state. When you flash an EEPROM, for electrical reasons, every byte is set to $FF. Which is to say every addressable bit has an electrical source (high state) running to it. When you "burn" an EEPROM, you are basically burning away the connection to that addressable bit. It's sort of like starting with a solid piece of rock and chipping away the sculpture underneath (as opposed to adding rock to an empty model).

EDIT: Note that when I say uninitialized memory, I mean uninitialized memory from the PC that compiled the binary, not the cartridge itself.
This post has been edited by Cooljerk: 19 July 2017 - 09:54 PM

#17 User is offline flamewing 

Posted 20 July 2017 - 06:23 AM

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View PostCooljerk, on 19 July 2017 - 09:51 PM, said:

It's definitely uninitialized memory from compilation.
[snip]
EDIT: Note that when I say uninitialized memory, I mean uninitialized memory from the PC that compiled the binary, not the cartridge itself.

It is most unequivocally and certainly NOT THAT. This is the only thing we can say with absolute certainty. For this to happen, Crackers would have to be assembled then, without turning the computer off, you would have to assemble the other game without anything overwriting the RAM in between and just happen to reuse the same RAM location.

So we know for certain it cannot be this.

You have it exactly backwards, it is more likely to be leftover data on the cartridge used. Especially since EEPROM is bytewise writable and erasable, unlike what you say; it is only flash-based EEPROM which is not byte erasable, and they most certainly did not use that back then.
This post has been edited by flamewing: 20 July 2017 - 06:26 AM

#18 User is offline Natsumi 

Posted 20 July 2017 - 08:15 AM

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I remember there was a thread floating around somewhere where there were bunch of different MD games with part of the source code intact, similar to the Sonic 2 Beta edit mode leak. IIRC either SNASM68K or some external exe that handled file includes or w/e, would sometimes pull random files as data and it would appear in the ROM. So a lot of games had parts of their source just inside as ascii data. Maybe this is related? Maybe there are some random bits of unreleased/incomplete/other stuff just lying inside of games, protos or not. Would be interesting to see if we can find more hidden stuff like this...

#19 User is offline Cooljerk 

Posted 20 July 2017 - 09:24 AM

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View Postflamewing, on 20 July 2017 - 06:23 AM, said:

It is most unequivocally and certainly NOT THAT. This is the only thing we can say with absolute certainty. For this to happen, Crackers would have to be assembled then, without turning the computer off, you would have to assemble the other game without anything overwriting the RAM in between and just happen to reuse the same RAM location.


This is precisely what I'm proposing happened.

Quote

You have it exactly backwards, it is more likely to be leftover data on the cartridge used. Especially since EEPROM is bytewise writable and erasable, unlike what you say; it is only flash-based EEPROM which is not byte erasable, and they most certainly did not use that back then.


Except, as pointed out, the padded areas are all over the rom, not only at the end. You don't pick and select which areas are written and erased like that. It's more like pooling, where the entire size of the ROM are written.

View PostNatsumi, on 20 July 2017 - 08:15 AM, said:

I remember there was a thread floating around somewhere where there were bunch of different MD games with part of the source code intact, similar to the Sonic 2 Beta edit mode leak. IIRC either SNASM68K or some external exe that handled file includes or w/e, would sometimes pull random files as data and it would appear in the ROM. So a lot of games had parts of their source just inside as ascii data. Maybe this is related? Maybe there are some random bits of unreleased/incomplete/other stuff just lying inside of games, protos or not. Would be interesting to see if we can find more hidden stuff like this...


Sort of related, but Zelda DX on the Gameboy Color includes bits of the Borland's Turbo C IDE along with part of the text tile containing part of the source to Zelda DX because of how it was padded when malloc was used. Incidentally, this is how people also know that Zelda DX was machine disassembled from the original Zelda: LA.
This post has been edited by Cooljerk: 20 July 2017 - 09:28 AM

#20 User is offline GerbilSoft 

Posted 20 July 2017 - 09:43 AM

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IIRC, most MD development boards used EPROM, not EEPROM. (One E, not two.) To erase an EPROM, you uncover its window and expose it to a strong UV light source. There's no way to control which parts of the EPROM are erased; it's all or nothing.
This post has been edited by GerbilSoft: 20 July 2017 - 09:43 AM

#21 User is offline Clownacy 

Posted 20 July 2017 - 04:06 PM

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...I thought the Zelda DX thing was only in some fan translation?

#22 User is offline Cooljerk 

Posted 20 July 2017 - 04:12 PM

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View PostClownacy, on 20 July 2017 - 04:06 PM, said:

...I thought the Zelda DX thing was only in some fan translation?


doesnt look like it

Seems thats from the retail copy of zelda dx.

#23 User is offline GerbilSoft 

Posted 20 July 2017 - 04:33 PM

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View PostCooljerk, on 20 July 2017 - 04:12 PM, said:

View PostClownacy, on 20 July 2017 - 04:06 PM, said:

...I thought the Zelda DX thing was only in some fan translation?


doesnt look like it

Seems thats from the retail copy of zelda dx.

One of the comments says that the matching ROM image (MD5: ee0424cf1523f67c5007566aed70696d) is listed in GoodGBx as "Zelda no Densetsu – Yume no Miru Shima DX (J) (V1.0) [C][p1][T+Chi][!].gbc", and that the original ROM doesn't have it.

That would explain the CALL patching.

#24 User is offline Clownacy 

Posted 20 July 2017 - 04:43 PM

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Ninja'd, but in particular, according to these two, the GoodTools codes in that filename indicate that it's a pirate Chinese ROM translation.

Yes I know I'm getting off-topic
This post has been edited by Clownacy: 20 July 2017 - 04:45 PM

#25 User is offline Cooljerk 

Posted 20 July 2017 - 04:49 PM

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Oh word, never checked the comments. That dude should update his page, haha.

#26 User is offline Ritz 

Posted 20 July 2017 - 10:13 PM

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Can we talk about the gameplay implications here, though? The isometric maps in Crackers aren't something I've ever seen discussed at length, actually- my personal theory had always been that they were going to be an overworld for selecting stages like what Lost World eventually got, given how little indication there is to how these sections would've played (the factory stage at least has tiles for a springboard, so we know aerial movement was planned). But now that we have action sprites, we know for sure that a second full-fledged gametype was planned. What's weird is that the stages are isometric, but there are no diagonal sprites for the players. Doesn't seem like there was much coordination going on with the team at this stage of development.

Also I love the cast shadows in that "victory" animation.
This post has been edited by Ritz: 20 July 2017 - 10:15 PM

#27 User is offline Cooljerk 

Posted 20 July 2017 - 11:44 PM

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View PostRitz, on 20 July 2017 - 10:13 PM, said:

Can we talk about the gameplay implications here, though? The isometric maps in Crackers aren't something I've ever seen discussed at length, actually- my personal theory had always been that they were going to be an overworld for selecting stages like what Lost World eventually got, given how little indication there is to how these sections would've played (the factory stage at least has tiles for a springboard, so we know aerial movement was planned). But now that we have action sprites, we know for sure that a second full-fledged gametype was planned. What's weird is that the stages are isometric, but there are no diagonal sprites for the players. Doesn't seem like there was much coordination going on with the team at this stage of development.

Also I love the cast shadows in that "victory" animation.


Possibly some sort of vestigial left over from the original Sonic Mars pitch:

Posted Image

#28 User is offline Blue Spikeball 

Posted 21 July 2017 - 01:20 AM

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View PostCooljerk, on 20 July 2017 - 11:44 PM, said:

View PostRitz, on 20 July 2017 - 10:13 PM, said:

Can we talk about the gameplay implications here, though? The isometric maps in Crackers aren't something I've ever seen discussed at length, actually- my personal theory had always been that they were going to be an overworld for selecting stages like what Lost World eventually got, given how little indication there is to how these sections would've played (the factory stage at least has tiles for a springboard, so we know aerial movement was planned). But now that we have action sprites, we know for sure that a second full-fledged gametype was planned. What's weird is that the stages are isometric, but there are no diagonal sprites for the players. Doesn't seem like there was much coordination going on with the team at this stage of development.

Also I love the cast shadows in that "victory" animation.


Possibly some sort of vestigial left over from the original Sonic Mars pitch:

Posted Image

Wasn't Crackers/Chaotix developed by a separate team from the Mars/X-treme one?

#29 User is offline Cooljerk 

Posted 21 July 2017 - 02:43 AM

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View PostBlue Spikeball, on 21 July 2017 - 01:20 AM, said:

View PostCooljerk, on 20 July 2017 - 11:44 PM, said:

View PostRitz, on 20 July 2017 - 10:13 PM, said:

Can we talk about the gameplay implications here, though? The isometric maps in Crackers aren't something I've ever seen discussed at length, actually- my personal theory had always been that they were going to be an overworld for selecting stages like what Lost World eventually got, given how little indication there is to how these sections would've played (the factory stage at least has tiles for a springboard, so we know aerial movement was planned). But now that we have action sprites, we know for sure that a second full-fledged gametype was planned. What's weird is that the stages are isometric, but there are no diagonal sprites for the players. Doesn't seem like there was much coordination going on with the team at this stage of development.

Also I love the cast shadows in that "victory" animation.


Possibly some sort of vestigial left over from the original Sonic Mars pitch:

Posted Image

Wasn't Crackers/Chaotix developed by a separate team from the Mars/X-treme one?


Yes, but reusing ideas from one project in another, even when entirely unrelated teams are involved, is hardly unheard of in the Sonic series. Ristar shares no staff between Sonic 1, Sonic 2, and Sonic 3, yet is generally agreed to have evolved from the original concept from Sonic 1.

Consider, also, that during roughly a 3 year stretch (1993-1996), there were at one point 5 different attempts at an isometric Sonic game (SegaSonic Arcade, Sonic Mars, Sonic 3D Blast, Sonic Labyrinth, and Sonic Crackers). Clearly this was an idea they kept bouncing around.

EDIT: Only big wrench is that the Sonic Mars pitch was May of 1994, where the Crackers Prototype we have is from April of 1994. But the pitch for Sonic Mars in May of 1994 was not the isometric Mars, but rather the one based off of the Amiga animation. The isometric Sonic pitch that Senn produced (the image above) isn't dated.
This post has been edited by Cooljerk: 21 July 2017 - 02:55 AM

#30 User is offline big smile 

Posted 21 July 2017 - 08:55 AM

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Dimps often recycled scrapped ideas. I wonder if Terminal Velocity in Sonic Colours DS was inspired by these scrapped over head stages in Sonic Crackers.

Also, Sonic 3 was originally supposed to be an isometric game and at one point they were going to use the SVP chip, but it wouldn't have been ready in time for the release. Perhaps some of these scrapped ideas influenced the stage.

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