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Sega Forever

#16 User is offline Ashura96 

Posted 15 June 2017 - 01:06 PM

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View PostLodmot, on 15 June 2017 - 07:55 AM, said:

Sega Forever is also on Facebook now, and it's a verified account too:

https://www.facebook.com/SEGAForever/

It also provides a couple more clues. o u o



The Facebook and Twitter pages have actually been up and verified for weeks with no content until this week.

#17 User is offline Lodmot 

Posted 15 June 2017 - 01:21 PM

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View PostAshura96, on 15 June 2017 - 01:06 PM, said:

View PostLodmot, on 15 June 2017 - 07:55 AM, said:

Sega Forever is also on Facebook now, and it's a verified account too:

https://www.facebook.com/SEGAForever/

It also provides a couple more clues. o u o



The Facebook and Twitter pages have actually been up and verified for weeks with no content until this week.

Ah, really?
That's strange. I was only able to stumble across the fan-created Facebook page. Oh well. :P

#18 User is offline GagaMan 

Posted 15 June 2017 - 01:35 PM

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Lol that comix zone teaser image is from my scan I put up on sega memories: http://sega-memories...omic-strip.html
This post has been edited by GagaMan: 15 June 2017 - 01:35 PM

#19 User is offline Cooljerk 

Posted 15 June 2017 - 02:26 PM

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View PostLowSeasCaroz, on 15 June 2017 - 11:32 AM, said:

Is there any solid proof for this or are you just speculating and making assumptions?


Quote

If this is true


Nobody is speculating anything. I'm reacting to the current claim by the libRetro author. I make no assumptions.

Quote

Just saying "Oh they will steal the emulator code and we should boycott SEGA and yo fuck SEGA amiright" before we even know anything other than "You'll be able to play Comix Zone and SG-1000 games maybe" seems kinda dickish.


Good thing I didn't say that, then.

View PostLowSeasCaroz, on 15 June 2017 - 12:17 PM, said:

But that's about the new AtGames console

They make the same claim about Sega Forever:

http://www.neogaf.co...2#post237894282
This post has been edited by Cooljerk: 15 June 2017 - 02:29 PM

#20 User is offline Lodmot 

Posted 15 June 2017 - 02:30 PM

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View PostCooljerk, on 15 June 2017 - 02:26 PM, said:

View PostLowSeasCaroz, on 15 June 2017 - 11:32 AM, said:

Is there any solid proof for this or are you just speculating and making assumptions?


Quote

If this is true


Nobody is speculating anything. I'm reacting to the current claim by the libRetro author. I make no assumptions.

Quote

Just saying "Oh they will steal the emulator code and we should boycott SEGA and yo fuck SEGA amiright" before we even know anything other than "You'll be able to play Comix Zone and SG-1000 games maybe" seems kinda dickish.


Good thing I didn't say that, then.

View PostLowSeasCaroz, on 15 June 2017 - 12:17 PM, said:

But that's about the new AtGames console

They make the same claim about Sega Forever:

http://www.neogaf.co...2#post237894282


Maybe I'm a simpleton, but it just seems wacky to me that Sega isn't allowed to have an emulator that's based off of their own platform. Lol.

#21 User is offline Cooljerk 

Posted 15 June 2017 - 02:34 PM

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View PostLodmot, on 15 June 2017 - 02:30 PM, said:

Maybe I'm a simpleton, but it just seems wacky to me that Sega isn't allowed to have an emulator that's based off of their own platform. Lol.


I don't think you know how emulation works. Emulation is duplicating physical functionality in software without touching the original implementation.

Easy example, this is the physical circuitry for a half adder -

Posted Image

There is an infintite number of ways to reproduce the logical function of this circuitry. A quick example trying to be as obtuse as possible:

int halfadder(bool a, bool b, bool *s, bool *c)
{
Switch(a)
Case true:
{ switch(b)
Case true: &s = 0; &c = 1;
Break;
Default: &s = 1; &c = 0;
}
Break;
Default: &s =0; &c = 0;
}

Return 1;
}


To prove what I say, here is the same function written in a totally different way:

int halfadder(bool a, bool b, bool *s, bool *c)
{
&s = 0;
&c = 0;
If(!(a || b)) &s = true; 
If(a && b) &c = true;

Return 1;
}


The code and the circuit proform the same function, but the code is not the circuitry. Both the codes above and the circuit represent a well understood concept in linear algebra. You cannot own linear algebraic functions, that is akin to owning, say, chord progression.

Roms are nothing more than a list of opcodes being read into physical circuitry. Each opcode has a corresponding identifier code. Emulation is opening up a dumped rom and seeing which commands are being fed to the processor, theb performing equivalent functions in software. If instruction code 0000 with register 1 holding a and register 2 holding b is the sign to perform half adder arithmetic on a and b into registers 3 holding a and register 4 holding c, what you do is examine the execution code and when 0000 is called, perform my above halfadder subroutine.

There is no stealing of code going on. No theft. No copyright violation. Emulation is legal, this is unquestionable. And each author's code is their own.

What isn't legal is taking my above code which, say I have released under the gpl (like the emulators allegedly being stolen in question) and selling it as though it were your own. No, you don't own the code. Go write your own functions. You should not be able to steal work and sell it without my permission.

And, an aside - Much of the Sega Genesis is off-the-shelf parts, not invented by Sega. Sega didn't invent the m68k. Sega didn't invent the z80. Etc.
This post has been edited by Cooljerk: 15 June 2017 - 02:36 PM

#22 User is offline Lodmot 

Posted 15 June 2017 - 03:56 PM

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View PostCooljerk, on 15 June 2017 - 02:34 PM, said:

View PostLodmot, on 15 June 2017 - 02:30 PM, said:

Maybe I'm a simpleton, but it just seems wacky to me that Sega isn't allowed to have an emulator that's based off of their own platform. Lol.


I don't think you know how emulation works. Emulation is duplicating physical functionality in software without touching the original implementation.

Easy example, this is the physical circuitry for a half adder -

Posted Image

There is an infintite number of ways to reproduce the logical function of this circuitry. A quick example trying to be as obtuse as possible:

int halfadder(bool a, bool b, bool *s, bool *c)
{
Switch(a)
Case true:
{ switch(b)
Case true: &s = 0; &c = 1;
Break;
Default: &s = 1; &c = 0;
}
Break;
Default: &s =0; &c = 0;
}

Return 1;
}


To prove what I say, here is the same function written in a totally different way:

int halfadder(bool a, bool b, bool *s, bool *c)
{
&s = 0;
&c = 0;
If(!(a || b)) &s = true; 
If(a && b) &c = true;

Return 1;
}


The code and the circuit proform the same function, but the code is not the circuitry. Both the codes above and the circuit represent a well understood concept in linear algebra. You cannot own linear algebraic functions, that is akin to owning, say, chord progression.

Roms are nothing more than a list of opcodes being read into physical circuitry. Each opcode has a corresponding identifier code. Emulation is opening up a dumped rom and seeing which commands are being fed to the processor, theb performing equivalent functions in software. If instruction code 0000 with register 1 holding a and register 2 holding b is the sign to perform half adder arithmetic on a and b into registers 3 holding a and register 4 holding c, what you do is examine the execution code and when 0000 is called, perform my above halfadder subroutine.

There is no stealing of code going on. No theft. No copyright violation. Emulation is legal, this is unquestionable. And each author's code is their own.

What isn't legal is taking my above code which, say I have released under the gpl (like the emulators allegedly being stolen in question) and selling it as though it were your own. No, you don't own the code. Go write your own functions. You should not be able to steal work and sell it without my permission.

And, an aside - Much of the Sega Genesis is off-the-shelf parts, not invented by Sega. Sega didn't invent the m68k. Sega didn't invent the z80. Etc.


Alright, makes sense.

Having said that though, I can still see why Sega isn't crazy about emulators. Like I said before, they sort of enable piracy of games on Sega Genesis/Master System/Dreamcast. But then again I also understand they're technically not responsible for the distribution of pirated games. But they are influencing it by allowing people to play the content.

Take the new Dreamcast emulator that's being made for Xbox One. I highly doubt that will stay available for very long, even if it IS original code. It's enabling people to access their content without having to pay for it, so Sega's losing profit. Many Sega emulators have actually been disappearing from the Windows 10 store too I've noticed. Kinda sucks for us and the people that make the emulators, but I can also see why companies like Sega aren't crazy about it.
This post has been edited by Lodmot: 15 June 2017 - 04:11 PM

#23 User is offline Cooljerk 

Posted 15 June 2017 - 04:12 PM

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View PostLodmot, on 15 June 2017 - 03:56 PM, said:

Having said that though, I can still see why Sega isn't crazy about emulators

Who says Sega isn't crazy about emulators? They don't go around shutting emulation projects down. And they have a very long history of actually purchasing emulators (like giri giri and KGen98) or hiring emulator authors (like Steve Snake, or the Nebula author to help with Daytona USA).

In fact, their history makes the entire situation with LibRetro all the more bizarre. It would go against their historic behavior. They should know better than this.

Quote

Take the new Dreamcast emulator that's being made for Xbox One. I highly doubt that will stay available for very long, even if it IS original code. It's enabling people to access their content without having to pay for it, so Sega's losing profit. Many Sega emulators have actually been disappearing from the Windows 10 store too I've noticed. Kinda sucks for us and the people that make the emulators, but I can also see why companies like Sega aren't crazy about it.


None of that would be Sega's call. That's all Microsoft.
This post has been edited by Cooljerk: 15 June 2017 - 04:13 PM

#24 User is offline Lodmot 

Posted 15 June 2017 - 04:27 PM

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View PostCooljerk, on 15 June 2017 - 04:12 PM, said:

View PostLodmot, on 15 June 2017 - 03:56 PM, said:

Having said that though, I can still see why Sega isn't crazy about emulators

Who says Sega isn't crazy about emulators? They don't go around shutting emulation projects down. And they have a very long history of actually purchasing emulators (like giri giri and KGen98) or hiring emulator authors (like Steve Snake, or the Nebula author to help with Daytona USA).

In fact, their history makes the entire situation with LibRetro all the more bizarre. It would go against their historic behavior. They should know better than this.

Quote

Take the new Dreamcast emulator that's being made for Xbox One. I highly doubt that will stay available for very long, even if it IS original code. It's enabling people to access their content without having to pay for it, so Sega's losing profit. Many Sega emulators have actually been disappearing from the Windows 10 store too I've noticed. Kinda sucks for us and the people that make the emulators, but I can also see why companies like Sega aren't crazy about it.


None of that would be Sega's call. That's all Microsoft.


If Sega has a long history of purchasing emulators, then the only thing I can think of is we're not getting the entire story about the LibRetro situation. From what I saw in this thread, it sounds like the only source we have is a few twitter posts.

#25 User is offline Covarr 

Posted 15 June 2017 - 05:05 PM

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Let's clear some things up:

  • The new classic Sega console is being made by AtGames, not Sega. Sure, Sega owns the included games, but ultimately this is a licensed product that they are not so directly involved in.
  • Sega also has a long history of not providing enough oversight when they work with other companies. This has led to disaster after disaster, including Aliens: Colonial Marines and Sonic Boom: Rise of Lyric. I would not be surprised if AtGames is up to some shady shit and Sega is blissfully unaware because they (foolishly) left this in AtGames' hands.
  • We know approximately nothing about Sega Forever, except that it has something to do with retro games and mobile. This Libretro mess is linked to the AtGames console, but the only connection we have between that and Sega Forever, at least at this point, is assumptions and speculation.


At the end of the day, even if Sega Forever does turn out to be emulation of classics, we don't really have anything to go on saying it'll use the same emulator as the Sega Genesis Flashback.

#26 User is offline Cooljerk 

Posted 15 June 2017 - 05:16 PM

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View PostCovarr, on 15 June 2017 - 05:05 PM, said:

Let's clear some things up:

  • The new classic Sega console is being made by AtGames, not Sega. Sure, Sega owns the included games, but ultimately this is a licensed product that they are not so directly involved in.
  • Sega also has a long history of not providing enough oversight when they work with other companies. This has led to disaster after disaster, including Aliens: Colonial Marines and Sonic Boom: Rise of Lyric. I would not be surprised if AtGames is up to some shady shit and Sega is blissfully unaware because they (foolishly) left this in AtGames' hands.
  • We know approximately nothing about Sega Forever, except that it has something to do with retro games and mobile. This Libretro mess is linked to the AtGames console, but the only connection we have between that and Sega Forever, at least at this point, is assumptions and speculation.


At the end of the day, even if Sega Forever does turn out to be emulation of classics, we don't really have anything to go on saying it'll use the same emulator as the Sega Genesis Flashback.


the LibRetro guys claim they gave their presentation to GoGame, not AtGames. GoGame is a subsidiary of Sega for the express purpose of publishing mobile games.

https://gogame.net/our-story

Quote

We are a mobile game publisher and subsidiary of SEGA.

Our story started in Singapore, July 2015 and took a pivotal turn when we gained the backing of gaming giant SEGA and venture capitalist Incubate Fund. We quickly expanded across Asia with offices in Taiwan, Thailand, Vietnam and the Philippines.

We are made up of people from various countries, cultures and specializations, with one thing in common--we're serious about play.

We believe games are powerful. They put smiles on faces. Unburden minds. And they offer everyone a place in worlds they've only dreamed of.

That's why we're here to help game developers bring their code to mobile screens across the globe. To turn their good game into a great one. More importantly, we have the vision, talent and ambition to make it happen.


From the LibRetro guys:

Quote

We made a demo using RetroArch for a subsidiary of theirs called GoGame for GDC.


They never dealt with AtGames.

Actually, scratch that -- they did deal with AtGames... which GoGame was involved with.

Quote

Once we were contacted by Gogame (a Sega subsidiary), after that this one (Atgames). I think the two are allied too, the previous guy [Cooljerk ed: The Previous Guy being their contact from GoGame] kept sending e-mails to us about how he was ordering some of these Atgames products and how he'd like to use RetroArch on it


From your very own links.
This post has been edited by Cooljerk: 15 June 2017 - 05:24 PM

#27 User is offline Covarr 

Posted 15 June 2017 - 05:44 PM

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View PostCooljerk, on 15 June 2017 - 05:16 PM, said:

words

Derp, you're right. I missed the part about GoGame being connected to AtGames. Still, we don't know that this is necessarily connected to Sega Forever at this point; everything the Libretro links has said seems to be about the Flashback console.

Mind you, I'm not saying it isn't related to Sega Forever, but we really only have a tenuous connection at this point.

#28 User is offline Cooljerk 

Posted 15 June 2017 - 06:33 PM

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View PostCovarr, on 15 June 2017 - 05:44 PM, said:

View PostCooljerk, on 15 June 2017 - 05:16 PM, said:

words

Derp, you're right. I missed the part about GoGame being connected to AtGames. Still, we don't know that this is necessarily connected to Sega Forever at this point; everything the Libretro links has said seems to be about the Flashback console.

Mind you, I'm not saying it isn't related to Sega Forever, but we really only have a tenuous connection at this point.


Hence my "ifs" and "allegedly."

Sega is, bar none, my favorite company in the world. I really, really hope this is all a misunderstanding, because I really don't want to think of them this way.

#29 User is offline Shalpp 

Posted 15 June 2017 - 06:43 PM

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SEGA is a bigger company and has more of a reputation at stake to tarnish than HyperKin, I wouldn't think they'd want to risk looking like dickholes with douchey practices for their software.
They have used other's software (my knowledge of how the permission was obtained is garbage) for Sega Smash Pack 1 & 2 (KGEN by Steve Snake IIRC), Sonic Collection on the DS was made on a heavily modified version of JenesisDS.
I'm actually interested in knowing how they go about getting an emulator in the works for this project. I know their collections have had varying levels of emulation accuracy when compared to what can be achieved already *coughcoughSEGAClassicsonSteamcoughcough*

#30 User is offline biggestsonicfan 

Posted 15 June 2017 - 11:04 PM

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View PostCooljerk, on 15 June 2017 - 04:12 PM, said:

(like Steve Snake, or the Nebula author to help with Daytona USA).

Chiming in: Nebula author aka ElSemi aka owns his own game porting company BitWorks, and even worked with Taxman on the 2011 Sonic CD rerelease even.

Quote

What later would become BlitWorks started with a friend and me, both sharing long experiences writing console and arcade emulators (System 32, the Mega Drive, the Dreamcast, NeoGeo, Capcom System II & III and Sega Model 2). This hobby work put us in contact with people at Sega and our relationship grew over time.
At some point, due to our expertise with consoles, we were offered to do a port of the Sonic CD remake that was already being done by Christian Whitehead. This was when we decided to join forces with other friends and start BlitWorks.

Source: link. I wonder if they are still in contact.

This is just a heavily-viled cash-grab to release more rehashes/mobile ports, I'm sure.
This post has been edited by biggestsonicfan: 15 June 2017 - 11:05 PM

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