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Re: Sonic Megamix

#31 User is offline Selbi 

Posted 09 July 2016 - 08:28 PM

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Releasing source code in this community has always been a thorn in many people's eyes, myself included. To this day we can hear faint claims of homing attacks getting stolen or redistributed, dating all the way back from 2009 and beyond (at least from my humble memories). It's just something that doesn't work as the simple black/white case many people think it is (looking at you, Overlord). Stuff like respect to the original creators or having a shiny feature just ripped out from a source code will make a formerly high-class desert look like a bag of potato chips.

Granted, that bag has your favorite flavor, but still.

I mean, look at ASMToSegaGenesis. An entire website dedicated for free source code exchange of Sonic hacks. Nobody, without a doubt here, took any of those with good intention. It's as perfect of a "give a man a fish" example as I could think of.

However, nobody can really oppose Stealth in his decisions anyway, and I've long surpassed questioning ethics in source code within this community. I still dislike it, but it's nothing to lose heads over anymore.

#32 User is offline Ravenfreak 

Posted 09 July 2016 - 08:32 PM

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Thing is, ASMToSegaGenesis stole the code without even asking in the first place. (And of course if they were to ask... the answer would have been no anyways.) Stolen content isn't the same as a hacker freely releasing the source code to their project for others to do whatever the heck they want with.

#33 User is offline Selbi 

Posted 09 July 2016 - 08:39 PM

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Yet both will lead to the same result. It doesn't matter if the code is "legally" available or not.
This post has been edited by Selbi: 09 July 2016 - 08:39 PM

#34 User is offline Mr Lange 

Posted 09 July 2016 - 08:47 PM

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I'd say a better analogy is giving a man a selection of fishing rods and tools, instead of expecting him to build his own fishing rod from scratch. Even with a fishing rod you still have to understand how to fish and catch your own, just as with hacking you still have to have a decent understanding of what you're working with and applying it yourself.
Giving him the fish would be straight up making his hack for him.

Besides that, this goes back to again, having good and bad vs having nothing. Of course people are going to abuse available resources. I'd even argue that's part of the point. You want people to go nuts, make good and bad things, and in doing so this is learning in a grander scheme, as it shows what to do, what not to do, and seeing poor works will inversely encourage better works, which leads to more learning, and getting into details. That's part of what makes the scene alive.
This post has been edited by Mr Lange: 09 July 2016 - 08:49 PM

#35 User is offline MarkeyJester 

Posted 10 July 2016 - 12:27 AM

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A society free to borrow, and build upon the past, is culturally richter, than a controlled one. Overprotecting interlectural property is as harmful as underprotecting it, and a culture is impossible without a rich, public, domain.

There have been several instances where the question of "is hacking dying" have occurred, I would say that it's appeal is strongly related to a lack of available hacking resources, and while we may have more resource and control than other ROM modification fan bases, our limits are still determined by our personal knowledge, rather than shared knowledge.

My personal verdict on this is dependent on "what" content is being release, when it comes to game engine functions (level rendering/control/etc), then I am on full support of this. It's if it steps into the realms of using the games "deep" assets, you know, the things that give Megamix "identity", such as level specific object/gimmicks, music, art, etc, that I would consider it a bit of a problem, though there is no garentee this will have a negative effect. If the source were supplied with some "stock" data to work with, it'd be an acceptable approach in my opinion.

#36 User is offline DarkVDee 

Posted 10 July 2016 - 12:55 AM

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I'm just putting what my dear friend say to me (I won't reveal who) and I think I should put this here to hopefully open everyone eyes and mind but hey I'm just a pixel artist.

People have to remember that these are hack games. I see a lot of the opinions thrown around in the Sonic community regarding hacks (especially fan games) and most of them are asking the devs to be overreaching in their approach to their games, "Original gimmicks" can only go as far as the human mind can develop. When it comes to human development in all things, nothing new is under the sun. Trite but true.

Hacking and coding takes a while to work on and by a while, I mean, years even. People have to remember that devs that make these hack games and codes are not making their original game. It's a game based off of their favorite characters. It's basically a fanfiction made into video game form but a lot more attractive as it's not centered around fanfiction basics, such as ships and things of that nature.

There's always bugs. If we're relying on an engine, the technicians of that engine left bugs behind. The devs using the engine might make some bugs, too. It's natural. We always try to fix them later on (well, most of us). It's not like we're making or original games here. We're not getting paid to them- they're not our main careers and/or jobs. We have other things we have to focus primarily on. I'm not trying to make an excuse for people not finishing fan games. Life tends to get in the way and things happen.

A little volunteer team (no payment) will work several years into coding and hacks. Someone else's ideas they're working with and they work with them so selflessly and when it's finally completed, a sense of proudness is felt. I haven't been there yet but I can only imagine. You, as the director of the fan game see it in fruition, completed, and people are playing it! Then, people turn around and say to you, "oh it's only this and that but it really sucks." How dare them! It's perfectly welcome to criticize but when one does, they have to remember to list the strengths and compliment those strengths. Then, if there are any weaknesses, let the artist(s) know what they need to improve on for the future but they have to say it in a professional manner. Not just "it sucks so far. You need to work on that."

Then afterward, to encourage them and congratulate them on their effort. Some say "harsh words can encourage at times". Yeah, but depending on the individual, it can seriously injure as well. I mean, you're looking at said individual. Yeah, I can take criticisms. I mean, I'm an artist, I'm criticized all the time but I'm a rabid perfectionist which is caused by a minor anxiety issue I'm currently suffering with so when someone says such a thing and think it's them giving the perfect criticism, it actually shoots a powerful low-blow. And, I'm not just saying all of this because this is what I believe in, my public speaking professor in community mentioned all of these things.

Ps. Please don't kill me...

#37 User is offline Jayextee 

Posted 10 July 2016 - 06:22 AM

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I really hate the laziness argument.

Like, shit, if I were to want to focus more on art and music (areas in which I feel confident) and copy-paste a character move in there instead of learning to code it from scratch (an area which makes me want to panic and throw myself out of high windows) then that being an option would be better overall.

Yeah, yeah, I know not everyone's going to have that down and will just copy-paste from all areas and be all DERP I MAKED THING. But have a little hope, yeah? An extended palette for the non-technical modders would IMO be a good thing. Sure, you're going to get more low-quality shit in terms of volume; but also there's the possibility of a lowered barrier to entry attracting skilled folk who wouldn't normally dabble.

And I know both of those will happen, seen it in the Doom community. For every five shit-tier "my house lol" or equivalent wads there's something definitely worth playing, and everything inbetween.

#38 User is offline Ell678 

Posted 10 July 2016 - 07:14 AM

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I don't know, Sonic 1 Alt seemed to be fairly well received, and I am atrocious with code. Say I had access to another character, completely ready to insert into my hack. My strength is level layouts - I would now take into account the second character and do some interesting stuff with routes and hidden goodies.

If people use it wisely, I see no issue in using premade content. There will always be idiots who don't, but honestly, there will always be shit hacks, no matter what.

#39 User is offline Herm the Germ 

Posted 10 July 2016 - 10:05 AM

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I think it's like saying RPG Maker games are all bad on account of RPG Maker having taken care of most of the actual programming for you. Yet, I think it's the results that should speak for themselves. There's always gonna be duds, in hacks, RPG Maker titles, anything where a thing is being created, but then, that's Sturgeon's Revelation for you.

#40 User is offline TimmiT 

Posted 10 July 2016 - 10:41 AM

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I'm really glad that the people behind Game Maker, Multimedia Fusion or even Super Mario Maker didn't stop development of their tools becuase of this "people are going to use this to make shitty stuff" logic some people use. I mean, those easy to use tools have made it possible for people to make a lot of shitty games or levels. But then Game Maker was also used to make Undertale, Hyper Light Drifter and Nuclear Throne. And MMF2 was used to make some of the best Sonic fangames, Freedom Planet and Noitu Love 2. And as terrible as many of the levels made with Mario Maker are, the great levels that do come out of it are still worth playing.

Point is: even if a lot of what will made with the tools will be garbage, that doesn't stop the good stuff that can come out of it from being good. There's also that it can be the starting point for people who will later go on to make something good. And if it's misused, whatever, whoever misuses would have to deal with a lot of people calling them out on it.
This post has been edited by TimmiT: 10 July 2016 - 10:43 AM

#41 User is offline Overlord 

Posted 10 July 2016 - 12:41 PM

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Seeing as I was specifically called out...

View PostSelbi, on 09 July 2016 - 08:39 PM, said:

Yet both will lead to the same result. It doesn't matter if the code is "legally" available or not.

Your argument seems to be "I only want the very most skilled programmers to be making hacks." Sorry, but I don't buy that at all. If the code is being made voluntarily available (as opposed to outright taking without permission, which I agree is wrong and shouldn't be done) then you've got no right to stand in an ivory tower and yell down THOU SHALT NOT USE WHAT THY HAST NOT WRITTEN from the battlements. As others have mentioned, you could maybe be the best sprite artist ever but cannot program for toffee - if having reference code to use will give us more high quality hacks I have zero issues with that at all.

And who's to say they might not learn enough from the experience to eventually be able to write code themselves anyway?

#42 User is offline HCKTROX 

Posted 10 July 2016 - 01:14 PM

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I'm tired of seeing the same damn problem over and over again. I seriously don't get what do you have with the homing attack, bitching so much about it, disassembling other people's unreleased work just to seek for stolen code, and whatever delirium you have through your glitchy brain. There's also no need of stealing code, vladikcomper put his own version to the public: Who said to not take it? go wild!, be responsible, it's not that extra moves will automagically make your work any better :V

EDIT: Grammar
This post has been edited by HCKTROX: 11 July 2016 - 01:22 PM

#43 User is offline Selbi 

Posted 10 July 2016 - 06:38 PM

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View PostOverlord, on 10 July 2016 - 12:41 PM, said:

Your argument seems to be "I only want the very most skilled programmers to be making hacks."

Uh, no, that's not what I said. What I "want" is unique features staying unique. When the Spin Dash or Knuckles was first ported to Sonic 1, it was a huge deal. Nowadays, both things are so trivial nobody cares anymore. Over time, more and more of these features have become standard, if not mandatory, making the overall impression they once had almost ride into oblivion.

I may be standing on my own feet with this opinion, but to me hacks are interesting if they have something unique to offer and aren't just rehashes of a bunch of freely available content.

Therefore this

View PostOverlord, on 10 July 2016 - 12:41 PM, said:

is just putting words in my mouth. I could go ahead right this instant and try to manually recreate a few features of Megamix. Am I allowed to do that? Sure, nobody has rights on ideas. Will it be interesting? Most certainly not; it's been done before.

On the other hand, trying to actually learn from this stuff is something I appreciate, and that was never something I denied. It's the direct copying that I don't like due to what I said above.

#44 User is offline CaveQuest 

Posted 10 July 2016 - 10:16 PM

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I just think this is a really good intention but still for those who does look at the hack will make sure they use stuff that they shouldn't really have access to in the first place as for an example music. The music in megamix is great and all but if the source code came with some parts of the disasmbly so would some people go ahead and copy paste it to their hacks and be plain lazy about it. I myself are trying to learn Asm myself. and it's going quite slowly but this source code could just be used as an archive or something. I do think that this source code would make hacking more accessive and that's a great treat for the comunity. though don't we already have all the tools we need for hacking these days? I just think the source code would be used for lazyness and as Sonic says. That's no good.

#45 User is offline MainMemory 

Posted 10 July 2016 - 10:47 PM

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View PostSelbi, on 10 July 2016 - 06:38 PM, said:

Uh, no, that's not what I said. What I "want" is unique features staying unique. When the Spin Dash or Knuckles was first ported to Sonic 1, it was a huge deal. Nowadays, both things are so trivial nobody cares anymore. Over time, more and more of these features have become standard, if not mandatory, making the overall impression they once had almost ride into oblivion.

Back in the old days, building a computer was something special, now anyone can do it.

Even before this announcement I was thinking of putting Knuckles' Emerald Hunt on GitHub after I "finish" it for this contest. Seeing people's attitudes here just makes me want to do it more.

I think my homing attack (which I needed help to make in the first place), light speed dash, and light speed attack are better than everyone else's anyway.

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