[The KKM]

Question that's popping up in SSMB because of this- do we actually have sources for the whole "originally it'd have been just Sonic, Eggman, Knuckles" trivia bit, or was it just people assuming since only those three are mentioned in the E3 trailer? Do we have sources for the whole "Tails is in due to fan outcry" bit, too?

[TheKazeblade]

The KKM, on 21 April 2015 - 02:25 PM, said:

Question that's popping up in SSMB because of this- do we actually have sources for the whole "originally it'd have been just Sonic, Eggman, Knuckles" trivia bit, or was it just people assuming since only those three are mentioned in the E3 trailer? Do we have sources for the whole "Tails is in due to fan outcry" bit, too?

From what I've heard, that was always just fan conjecture. There's no indication from Sega or Sonic Team this was ever the case. People just thought it was strange that only Sonic Knuckles and Eggman were the only playable characters shown, as it seemed very deliberate.

[speedyink]

I don't really think it's fair to call it straight up "bad". Even though the SA games are far from my favourite Sonic games, they are at least tolerable at their worst moments. The best moments though, ARE the over the top things that happen, just because Sonic is fast and when things go fast, we have fun. While these things aren't impressive now with all the fancy new games they got, in 1999 and 2001, that was why we liked Sonic. Seriously, who the hell didn't smile the first time the whale was breaking the dock behind them. That was totally rad to see, was really a great showcase of the system, and all the while remained fun. This is why, despite the technical flaws and how it hasn't aged horribly well, I don't consider either game bad.

Besides, considering how much Sega has clearly always struggled to make a 3D Sonic game, these games could have turned out a lot worse.

This post has been edited by speedyink: 21 April 2015 - 09:19 PM

[GeneHF]

TheKazeblade, on 21 April 2015 - 02:37 PM, said:

The KKM, on 21 April 2015 - 02:25 PM, said:

Question that's popping up in SSMB because of this- do we actually have sources for the whole "originally it'd have been just Sonic, Eggman, Knuckles" trivia bit, or was it just people assuming since only those three are mentioned in the E3 trailer? Do we have sources for the whole "Tails is in due to fan outcry" bit, too?

From what I've heard, that was always just fan conjecture. There's no indication from Sega or Sonic Team this was ever the case. People just thought it was strange that only Sonic Knuckles and Eggman were the only playable characters shown, as it seemed very deliberate.

Most of it is bolstered by causality that all the other characters not featured shared almost 1:1 gameplay with those three characters. Then we also have to consider Sonic in Sky Rail and unused animations the trailer shows but is never seen in game. Then we further have those reports that SA2 was originally to have Shadow's story progression style.

But hard factual evidence? I don't think that's ever been disclosed, and honestly, I don't think it ever will be.

[Shakidna]

The KKM, on 21 April 2015 - 02:25 PM, said:

Question that's popping up in SSMB because of this- do we actually have sources for the whole "originally it'd have been just Sonic, Eggman, Knuckles" trivia bit, or was it just people assuming since only those three are mentioned in the E3 trailer? Do we have sources for the whole "Tails is in due to fan outcry" bit, too?

Shadow wasn't originally playable, right? He was the final boss, Terios. Then he became playable and stole some of Sonic's levels (ex: Sky Rail).

That much I think is proven, so it's easy to extrapolate that it's the same for Tails and Rouge.

[Ell678]

Honestly, I used to love it when I was younger. The Emerald hunting levels pissed me off of course, but now I find them completely unbearable. I would have absolutely no problem with any of the Sonic / Shadow levels, and I didn't mind Eggman / Tails' levels. But I despise with an absolute passion Emerald hunting. I found the levels far too big, and there were far too many levels as well.

It's the only reason I won't go back to play it. I have the HD version, but I had to stop at Aquatic Mine, because it is so damn tedious.

[Dr. Corndog]

Just a couple months ago I replayed this for the first time in about ten years, and it was...a lot better than I was expecting. I went into it with all the harsh criticisms in mind that ProJared had, and then some, but I found myself enjoying almost every bit of it. The degree of my enjoyment varied depending on the character, of course, but playing through the story was thoroughly fun. It wasn't until I tried completing secondary missions with certain characters that I began to be truly frustrated.

I had forgotten how much this game improved over SA1, as well. The absence of a pointless hub world made a bigger difference than I'd remembered. The treasure hunting and mech stages were greatly improved by having their own dedicated levels. The boss fights were much better, and the game was improved on some technical levels, as well.

There were better Sonic games before, and there have been better Sonic games since. But although SA2 is overrated by many due to nostalgia, it's still a pretty good game. I'm going to say there's more good in there than bad, even.

This post has been edited by Dr. Corndog: 24 April 2015 - 10:00 PM

[muteKi]

I hadn't played this game until the HD remake came out. I've come to hate it. For one thing, it's incredibly slow; while this does a lot for fixing the collision detection over the first game it just makes the supposedly "fast" stages pretty dull. Then, there's the harsh physics, typified in the missile-boarding section of Metal Harbor -- if you move the controller just a little bit out of position, Sonic and Shadow lose all of their speed, making the game more like The Irritating Stick than anything else with Sonic in the name. Furthermore, the requirements for ranking are pretty asinine, especially considering how a lot of things in the game that give you points aren't mentioned anywhere (the hoops in Pyramid Cave, jumping at the end of grinds in Sky Rail or Final Rush/Chase). This also doesn't get past the fact that several stages, Crazy Gadget in particular, are pretty flat and boring! Aside from the gravity gimmick, there really isn't much of anything to that level.

Plus trying to do spin-dashes is just painful due to the amount of time you have to wait for it to charge. At least in SA1 with the unlimited dashing you could go about as fast as your reaction times could carry you, but here it just emphasizes how nasty and unforgiving the game is!

The treasure-hunting stages were inexcusable, but most of the mech stages were pretty aggressively okay, and since they weren't as beholden to the nasty physics I feel like I can actually casually start up the game and probably play one of those levels and not hate it. But they also don't stand out, and they feel less thoughtfully designed than Gamma's stages in SA1 -- particularly because they're their own levels, and not Sonic's levels expanded or developed on at all. The first feels like a take on the same ideas as Sonic 3/K does with different character abilities leading to different paths through the stages, but the second just makes me wonder why they spent the time developing these new stages at all and didn't try to make a couple levels that were more in line with Sonic's abilities.

And I have nothing good to say about Pyramid Cave.

[Herm the Germ]

… I dunno, I still do like SA2 as one of my favorite of the 3D titles, and I seriously don't get the gripe with the treasure hunting. Then again, I'm always the weird one… :B

[Shadic]

Pyramid Cave is nothing compared to stages like Mad Space, Aquatic Mine, Egg Quarters, Mission Street.

[Ell678]

I distinctly remember being stuck on Rouge's final level for at least an hour on my first playthrough. When I finished the game, I never, ever went back to the tresure hunting levels.

They are so, so boring. Massive, bland levels which take far too long to complete.

[muteKi]

Just commented on twitter that the one saving grace of those treasure stages is that each emerald is guaranteed to be within a certain region of the stage. The only reason I liked them in SA1 was because they took places in sub-stages that I was already familiar with as Sonic due to having run through them as him (or vice-versa in a couple cases), so I had a good idea of how to maneuver through them efficiently. Knuckles' stages in SA2 have a tendency to be both much larger and far more closed off (I would argue that there is no way that the layout of pyramid cave is justifiable), meaning the two things that made to stages interesting in SA1 were removed from them.

To me the big problem is that in making the Sonic stages so linear, most of what I found fun about SADX's levels (specifically, that Sonic was vastly overpowered compared to their structure and a number of especially cheat-y shortcuts exist in each stage) was removed. Trying to speedrun the game by hand (I.e., not a TAS) is pretty dull because there really isn't a lot you can do at any one point, especially due to how forcefully the physics engine tosses you around.

[Pokepunch]

I like the speed levels, and hunting levels to an extent. But I absolutely hate what they did to the shooting stages. The mechs control like utter ass, can't stand to play these at all.

[Lostgame]

I still can't believe I 100%'d this with all A's on the original DC.

God, how much more time I had to waste as a preteen.

[Fantastic]

I liked this game.
I like video games.