[Clownacy]

I'm still trying to figure out what he meant during his look at City Escape. Speed makes up for lack of good gameplay or platforming in general? He points out some bad areas of the stage, and follows it up with 'it's okay because Sonic/speed'.

[High Fidelity]

The main thing that put me off buying SA2 when it came out was that it seemed Sega was trying too hard to make Sonic 'cool' - and it just came off as other try hards of the era like Bubsy etc... BAM! Sonic snowboards (!?) from a helicopter! CRASH Sonic gets chased by a truck (wtf humans)!

All seemed a bit cheesy for me, I remember it turned me off massively at the time.

This post has been edited by High Fidelity: 20 April 2015 - 10:51 AM

[Shadic]

Clownacy, on 20 April 2015 - 09:53 AM, said:

I'm still trying to figure out what he meant during his look at City Escape. Speed makes up for lack of good gameplay or platforming in general? He points out some bad areas of the stage, and follows it up with 'it's okay because Sonic/speed'.

I think he gives it a general design pass just because it's mostly fun, and a first level doesn't need to be too crazy/exploratory in terms of design. I mean hell, the first level gives you the following:

• "Snow"boarding
  
• Ramps/Stunts
  
• Rail grinding
  
• Massive loop/wall run
  
• Chased by a massive truck

That's a lot of nifty elements/level gimmicks all introduced in a short amount of time. Before we were all jaded and critical, the stage was probably more entertaining than not for most of us.

Also just wanna say, fuck the people who thought Sonic's ground-bounce should be on the same button as his ring dash.

[Covarr]

Clownacy, on 20 April 2015 - 09:53 AM, said:

I'm still trying to figure out what he meant during his look at City Escape. Speed makes up for lack of good gameplay or platforming in general? He points out some bad areas of the stage, and follows it up with 'it's okay because Sonic/speed'.

As it's a first stage, and the speed isn't all it has to offer, there is some truth to that. Speed is exhilarating, and fun as hell as long as it's mixed with other bits. If you look at the progression of some of the better games in the series (not 1 or CD), you'll see they move gradually from free speed in the early stages to earned speed in the later ones. Angel Island adds in some platforming to mix things up, and to make the speedy bits seem faster in comparison, but for most of the stage, it's easy to go fast with little skill or effort. This is even truer of Emerald Hill Zone. On the opposite end of the spectrum, the ends of those games give you Sky Sanctuary and Wing Fortress. It is plenty possible to go fast in those levels, but you have to be much better at the game to do so.

That's something that City Escape gets pretty much right. There are segments where you need to platform, but they don't form the majority of the stage. Skill allows you to maintain speed even in those bits, and to find shortcuts in the already-fast sections, but it's freely available. This is as a first stage in a Sonic game should be. And if you look at the progression of the Sonic stages throughout the game, they do get harder, they do start to make speed less of a given and more of a reward, but they always leave that option. The most important thing that City Escape gets right is that it doesn't conflate "go fast the whole time" with "hold right to win". Even when you are going fast, you've gotta do other stuff to progress the level. You've gotta turn corners, jump platforms, climb stairs, defeat enemies, swing on those bar things, and make a couple of choices. Yeah, it's fast the whole time, but it still manages to have variety. If you can maintain that variety, the speed doesn't start to feel stale or shallow.

Yeah, this game is nowhere near perfect. 2/3 of it is pretty bad, and even the remaining third has some flaws. In spite of that, I do think it's fair to say that City Escape is one of the best stages in the entire franchise. It's just the right amount of challenge for a first stage, shows off some of the game's new features early on, helps the player get a grip on the controls (for example, it has you do homing attack in a safe area, before you do it over more treacherous jumps later in the game)... It sets everything up, and does a good job at it. What problems it does have are (except for the truck segment) problems inherent to the game itself, and not just with the stage.

[Jen]

Honestly, I pretty much agree with that video in its entirety.

Sonic and Shadow's levels, along with the Chao Gardens, are literally the only things I look back on fondly from SA2. Most of it was pretty bad, let's be honest here - even though I genuinely loved it all when I first played it (on my 14th birthday, July 2001, a month after release). It made me grin to see all the crap getting called out in that video, I'm getting sick of people worshipping this game as if it's the best Sonic game in existence - like Projared rightly said, people bitch and moan about the Werehog and stuff like that in the later titles, but somehow the Tails/Robotnik and Knuckles/Rouge levels are completely fine in SA2? Ok then.

Also, the comment about not playing as Sonic's "stupid friends" - yes, yes, and yes again. The alternate characters in Sonic 3 & Knuckles were amazing because the fundamental gameplay style remained the same regardless of which character you chose to play as, but because of their own unique abilities enabling them to access different paths through the stages, it makes you actually want to play as them sometimes rather than sticking with Sonic constantly. Because it still plays like a SONIC game no matter who you choose - high-speed platforming, none of this "let's shoot things" or "let's hunt for things" or whatever.

Would it be contradictory, then, to say this - "I fucking love the Chao"? Probably; but they're absolutely bloody adorable, they're fun to raise, and I'm just a total sucker for shit like that, sorry guys =P Plus, it gives incentive to replay the decent levels again, as Projared rightly said in his video - and, unless you're going after all the emblems, they're completely optional (unlike the "stupid friends" levels which are obviously required in order to complete the story and to access all of the "good" levels). The original Sonic Adventure was much better in this regard because each individual character had their own story, so you technically don't have to arse around with fishing and whatever else if you really don't want to - sure, you can't fully complete the game that way, but at least you can access all of Sonic's levels without having to plod through the other nonsense first. If you do want to complete the game but you're getting tired of a certain character, it gives you the option to pick up another one instead - that's how I first completed SA1, by flitting between the different gameplay styles when, for example, the fishing started to grate on me. It doesn't give you a roadblock like SA2 does if, for example, you're stuck at Death Chamber on the Hero story and Mad Space on the Dark story at the same time (which I'm fairly certain happened to me on my first playthough, holy shit...).

The part of the video where Projared showed all those Youtube comments about "WE WANT SA3!!11!!!" literally made me cringe - people need to stop with this now. For the most part, the games don't hold up very well anymore, it's mainly nostalgia talking. And besides, look at what happened when SEGA had the fucking genius idea of making a "Sonic 4" - it was a massive letdown for many reasons, which I seriously think would be the case if they were ever stupid enough to cave-in to the demands of a certain section of the fanbase and actually make SA3...

[DigitalDuck]

The Chao Gardens have always been, and will always be, the best part of the Sonic Adventure games.

[SuperSonicRider]

Eh, I never hated Sonic Adventure 2, and really I still don't, but out of the main 3D Sonic games I like (pretty much every one except Shadow and '06 (haven't gotten to form a solid opinion on Lost World)), I probably come back to it the least along with Heroes. The game people refer to the most when referencing bad controls seems to be Heroes, but honestly I don't see SA2 as totally innocent either. I wouldn't deem it as bad, but something about Sonic and Shadow's handling feels "jittery" compared to SA1 for me. Knuckles and Rouge have the same issue, and Eggman and Tails are far too stiff.

I used to hold SA2 and Heroes about where I place SA1 (which is a little below the Boost games) as far as general enjoyment whenever I go back to them goes (which doesn't mean a full-game playthrough necessarily), but they've fallen a lot from there now that theres's more, better games. I didn't even care about the Chao Garden, but I think it would be cool to see it revisited since a lot of people seem to like it. I think what made me look back so fondly on SA2 is the multiplayer, which was been the absolute best for any 3D Sonic game. Heroes and Lost World would be close, but Heroes loses points for having to unlock most of the modes, and Lost World is weird because both players have to know exactly how to handle Sonic if you want to have fun, and that really takes some time. I'm sure that would've been better in a more accessible game.

But anyway, back on-topic, yeah, SA2 (and SA1, for that matter) haven't held up amazingly, but really, this is nothing new. I wouldn't say I would like to see the Adventure formula revisited, but I would like to see multiple characters brought back in gameplay. The thing about Sonic's Stupid Friends™ is that it's not so much them that suck, but the fact that they do things which clearly pad out the game. I can somewhat appreciate that they tried to do something different with them, but it was tolerable at best in SA1, and it seems like they actively tried to make them worse in the sequel Sonic's friends haven't been playable in a main 3D Sonic game without at least half of the cast doing something irrelevant and/or tedious, so the blame tends to gets placed on them rather than their context.

I know it's probably not something that really took a lot of time to make, but I like how the characters are handled in Sonic Runners, for a recent example. You have Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles. Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles all handle slightly differently, but they all have the same objective. And while Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles are the only ones really relevant to the "plot", you can unlock other characters to use whenever. This is pretty much how I'd like to see it approached in a main 3D Sonic game, except maybe make the extra characters only playable in Trial or something, and also make unlocking them not stupid

This post has been edited by SuperSonicRider: 20 April 2015 - 11:37 PM

[Tyty]

I honestly never had a problem with the SA2 treasure hunting or mech levels, but more the Rouge and Tails ones. The Rouge levels have annoying gimmicks slapped on and the Tails levels just aren't as fun as the Eggman ones.

Like, the Eggman stages have you blowing shit up all the time, but the Tails ones almost seem like they're designed to be gauntlets you rush to the end on. They just don't seem to have as much time spent on the design.

Chao garden still rules though. SA2 is probably one of my favorite games even if it's objectively mediocre and hasn't held up very well.

[Yeow]

Sonic Adventure 2 to me is much worse than the first Adventure game, and on its own merits is pretty mediocre. While SA2 is more technically competent (which has allowed it to aged better over time), I feel it took the flawed aspects of SA1 and amplified them to an even worse manner, rather than actually fixing them (level design) or doing away with them completely (genre roulette).

Treasure hunting stages are twice as big, which wouldn't be so bad if the hints weren't aggravatingly cryptic and the radar was neutered to only detecting one emerald at a time. Mech shooting stages controlled much clunkier (and for some reason Tails was stuffed into one...ugh) and felt slippery at times. Even the speedy platforming stages are a lot more automated and linear, they almost seem like a precursor to the boost games as there is very little playspace and a general lack of exploration or environmental gimmicks. And the worst part was that someone had the brilliant idea to streamline all playstyles into each story mode. I'm also not fond of its darker and edgier / "realistic" tone it had in both narrative and artstyle (which I feel obviously gave way to the likes of ShTH and Sonic 06).

SA1 in contrast I think its largest problem was the genre roulette, and even then I can partially forgive its inclusion as it was Sonic Team's first attempt with Sonic in 3D. SA2 has no excuse for not only preserving those aspects, but also retooling them to be designed even worse.

[Josh]

I'm mostly staying away from this, since I know I'm doing a video of my own on SA2 in a few months, and I'll need to make my points then. But one thing I've often wondered is this:

When the game was revealed in 2000, early trailers showed only three playable characters: Sonic, Knuckles, and Eggman. They also showed Sonic in levels that would end up being Shadow-only, like Sky Rail. There was a pretty sizable backlash to this at the time, particularly in making a game where Tails wasn't playable. In fact, he didn't appear in the trailers at all.

So I think it's pretty conclusive that the game was changed during development to include more characters. That's why everyone has a clone, and why Tails is restricted to mech shooting. I wonder if the game would have turned out better/more cohesive if they hadn't changed this?

[TheKazeblade]

I would imagine we would have had mostly the same levels, maybe a few less, just experienced by one character instead of two. I doubt the game would have seen much improvement from this except maybe in story cohesion.

I have a hard time believing Shadow was never planned to be playable though, otherwise why introduce another hedgehog? Unless he was only going to be playable in the Last Story only or another 2P exclusive character, both of which I doubt.

This post has been edited by TheKazeblade: 21 April 2015 - 10:16 AM

[VectorCNC]

I always thought Sonic Adventure 2 was pretty bad, even at the time I felt the Tails/Eggman portions were pointless and boring, the Knuckles/Rouge portions were boring, difficult to navigate and headache inducing…

The only good portions were Sonic/Shadow. I felt the same about SA1, that the Sonic portion was the only worthwhile element.

Frankly, I've never understood why anyone held these games in high regard. They marked the departure from what made Sonic a Sonic game, and not just in terms of the physics. They pursued realism in the graphics, which a lot of games did at the time to showcase the hardware, (which the series is only now correcting) to the detriment of the series signature aesthetic. They also replaced the acclaimed electronic soundtrack with a cheesy “rock”.

In a nutshell, well better than what was to proceed it, Sonic Adventure threw the baby out with the bathwater. The series lost all vestiges of what was perhaps it's best quality, the Design! It seems like gameplay critique gets 99% of the attention, and people hardly ever concern themselves with the design aspects, which I think is sort of ignorant…

There are games similar to Sonic around, someone had posted one of a simple rolling ball game just a month ago. It was similar to Sonic… Certainly the physics are majorly important, but it seems like people time and again ignore that the series was stripped of its signature design. I see classic-style fan games all the time to which stylistic qualities appear to have been completely overlooked. I find it baffling that so many people appear deaf to this.

[Josh]

Well, story cohesion still would've been a big improvement. Sonic Adventure had a significantly better story, IMO. I do agree it probably wouldn't have changed much gameplay-wise. It is bizarre, though. Shadow only has four stages of his own.

I think it is possible that Rouge, Shadow, and Tails were at one point planned as 2P-only characters. The game definitely had a bigger focus on 2P, which was only expanded further in Battle. Chaos, Tikal, Big, Amy, and Metal only show up there. Shadow in the last story would've made sense, though it would've been a bit odd to restrict him there.

[Tichmall]

I like the Knuckles levels, but not the Rouge ones. Must be the layouts. The Tails/Eggman levels get on my nerves pretty quickly since the big mechas fall easily when you're near an edge, and their size makes them an easy target for enemies that shoot stuff...

As for Sonic, that homing attack launching on its own against the Golem made me so angry... !

But I spent so much time raising Chaos with my brothers and friends, playing the levels while singing the themes with them, that, hmm, I like the game as a whole. Good memories. I agree with the review though, without the nostalgia, one can find it pretty bad.

[Zephyr]

I honestly can't hate the game, despite its flaws. Yes, it features several gameplay styles that serve to detract from potential fleshing out and polishing of the core Sonic gameplay, which is why I can't consider it a good Sonic game.

However, count me as another one of those people who came back to it time and time again, essentially because of the Chao Garden. That shit was just comfy as fuck, and it was a blast seeing my friends make their own Chao that would compete and interact with mine. With that becoming the main part of the game, the Action Stages basically became mini games where you could gather Rings, Animals, and Emblems for your Chao. And honestly, when looked at as mini games, those Action Stages are a lot more enjoyable for me. They all suffer from a lack of being polished and fleshed out, and being treated as a side distraction makes that all the more forgivable. The Speed Stages are just that, high octane, linear, platformers, and they're fun for what they are. The Mech Stages were fun for me, as they featured more traditional platforming and simple-minded, arcade styled, button mashing shoot 'em up goodness. The Treasure Hunting Stages were the most cozy to explore, and the music in them helped immensely.

As for the rest of the game itself, the grimdark-story revolving around a blue talking hedgehog, cheesy dialog, and poor voice track overlapping has become somewhat of a guilty pleasure for my friends and I. Certainly penetrates into the "so bad it's good" territory for us.

And that fucking 2 Player mode is great for parties.

To summarize, the game is flawed to hell and back. The fact that I have to laugh at the story, characters, and dialog to enjoy it, and the fact that I have to treat the main game and the side game the way I would treat the other to enjoy it, tells a lot about how "well made" it is. But that aside, I do get much more enjoyment out of it, when playing it this way, than I do out of most other games, regardless of how I play them.