[Strife]

Dark Sonic, on 05 December 2013 - 09:43 AM, said:

They have put themselves in a tough spot over the past 15 years though. Back in the day, people who liked Sonic liked basically the same games, since we had the Genesis titles and the 8-bit games, and sure while people have preferences, it's the same style of game. Now though? Classic, Adventure, Heroes, Boost, Parkour. Thanks to Sonic Team's constant reinvention of the series, it's almost impossible for them to know what makes Sonic good because more than 50% of the fan base hates the new game because it departs from the type of gameplay they enjoyed. Honestly it's time for them to make a decision. I thought that Generations was great because it divided the series into 2 basic types of gameplay, which is manageable, and it basically retconned everything else out of existence, almost like they were saying those other gameplays never happened. Then they added the parkour and now we're back to this mess again. At some point they have to pick which gameplays are going to define Sonic and find a way to say fuck off to the other parts of the fan base, and since classic Sonic gameplay is basically out of bounds for the chopping block, pick one more and call it a day for the rest.

This is pretty much exactly where I stand on the subject. There isn't a single Sonic fandom, but rather a bunch of divided factions who all want to see Sonic embrace a particular gameplay style. That being the case, I feel like Sonic Team from a business standpoint would be justified in developing games that are either tailored to the largest audience or focused on attracting newcomers to the series, especially children.

Take a look at the Mario fandom, which as a whole is much more unified. Mario sees much of its success with kids and his games are always brightly colored and kid-friendly to accommodate this target demographic. And because he's always been kid-friendly, the older fans don't often feel betrayed by the sudden shifts in tone and style that have been characteristic of Sonic over the years. Due to this consistency, there is little need for a clear distinction between "Modern Mario" or "Classic Mario" to the same extent of Modern and Classic Sonic. Mario is Mario.

Despite this, though, I feel like Sonic's ever-changing style fits his nature. As the lyrics of some of his theme songs so aptly point out, it doesn't matter to him, and he'll always keep on running no matter what. So it's not something that I think needs to be changed necessarily - just toned down a bit to establish a consistent set of gameplay elements that will help ensure that no matter what the heck he does, it'll be good in some way.

[Aerosol]

Sonic was consistently fast until SLW. There's that.

[Laura]

I don't really think it's fair to bring the fanbase into part of the reason Sonic failed. To put it very bluntly, Sonic Team pay very little, if any, attention to the hardcore fanbase. There are certain things that virtually all the hardcore fans want: Sonic's friends to be playable or more meaningful, a 'meaty' storyline (no matter the presentation) and less automation in the form of boosters and springs. Hilariously, these are all things Sonic Team have actually done the opposite of what the fans have asked for, sometimes in an aggressive manner. In the case of Sonic's friends, they are so paranoid of critics and casual gamers hating them that they don't even incorporate them into multiplayer.

I really don't think the fragmented state of the fanbase has any bearing on the future of Sonic or Sonic Team.

This post has been edited by Laura: 05 December 2013 - 04:05 PM

[Jayextee]

Laura, on 05 December 2013 - 04:01 PM, said:

I don't really think it's fair to bring the fanbase into part of the reason Sonic failed. To put it very bluntly, Sonic Team pay very little, if any, attention to the hardcore fanbase.

Stop right there.

Sonic community shoutouts/memes in Sonic Unleashed, and some of Sonic Generations would point toward the opposite being true. But we're a small niche and not their core audience to be honest; children whose parents can remember Sonic (and Sonic being 'good') are, and those are the ones buying - but not playing - the games.

[Jason]

Aerosol, on 05 December 2013 - 03:48 PM, said:

Sonic was consistently fast until SLW. There's that.

Marble and Labyrinth.

[JaredAFX]

Laura, on 05 December 2013 - 04:01 PM, said:

I don't really think it's fair to bring the fanbase into part of the reason Sonic failed. To put it very bluntly, Sonic Team pay very little, if any, attention to the hardcore fanbase. There are certain things that virtually all the hardcore fans want: Sonic's friends to be playable or more meaningful, a 'meaty' storyline (no matter the presentation) and less automation in the form of boosters and springs. Hilariously, these are all things Sonic Team have actually done the opposite of what the fans have asked for, sometimes in an aggressive manner. In the case of Sonic's friends, they are so paranoid of critics and casual gamers hating them that they don't even incorporate them into multiplayer.

I really don't think the fragmented state of the fanbase has any bearing on the future of Sonic or Sonic Team.

Pffffft. I sincerely don't mean to offend you, but that's totally not true. Iizuka has said Shadow was created with the intent of hooking American gamers with guns and cursing (which was brilliantly assumed after an online poll showed that we wanted Shadow to star in his own game).

I agree that the fanbase is not why Sonic Team has failed before, per sé, but they definitely had some influence on recent games.

This post has been edited by JaredAFX: 05 December 2013 - 04:19 PM

[Laura]

Jayextee, on 05 December 2013 - 04:12 PM, said:

Laura, on 05 December 2013 - 04:01 PM, said:

I don't really think it's fair to bring the fanbase into part of the reason Sonic failed. To put it very bluntly, Sonic Team pay very little, if any, attention to the hardcore fanbase.

Stop right there.

Sonic community shoutouts/memes in Sonic Unleashed, and some of Sonic Generations would point toward the opposite being true. But we're a small niche and not their core audience to be honest; children whose parents can remember Sonic (and Sonic being 'good') are, and those are the ones buying - but not playing - the games.

Sonic community shoutouts in Unleashed? What do these amount to? I honestly have no idea what this is about because I gave up on Unleashed a few hours in.

As for Generations, it was fanservice in the form of level selection and, perhaps, Classic Sonic. But let's be honest, everything else about Generations wasn't geared towards the hardcore fans. Sonic as only playable character, continuation of boost, automation e.t.c.

It's a natural position for a developer. Once you do too much fanservice you are essentially doing marketing (and it makes more sense to focus on market trends and critic's complaints), and since game creation is usually a creative process anyway developers try to shy away from this and go on their own instincts.

JaredAFX, on 05 December 2013 - 04:15 PM, said:

Pffffft. I sincerely don't mean to offend you, but Iizuka has said Shadow was created with the intent of hooking American gamers with guns and cursing (which was brilliantly assumed after an online poll showed that we wanted Shadow to star in his own game).

I agree that the fanbase is not why Sonic Team has failed before, per sé, but they definitely had some influence on recent games.

I really don't think the hardcore fans of Sonic wanted Shadow toting guns.

I don't even think Shadow fans tend to want that. Shadow fans want Shadow as he was portrayed in SA2, which is more anime influenced. Having Shadow all American influenced with guns and the contemporary urban trend seems to go against this doesn't it.

This post has been edited by Laura: 05 December 2013 - 04:21 PM

[Captain L]

I'd definitely say Sonic Generations gameplay was still there to appeal to the fans. Classic Sonic was included because we wouldn't stop bitching about Sonic 4 and the physics, and Modern Sonic's continuation of boost gameplay was because we were receptive to it in Unleashed and Colors. Remember, Unleashed got some abysmal reviews from professional outlets, but the fandom liked Sonic in it. Our approval of it was enough to keep it in Colors, and when everyone liked that, it only seemed right to keep it again.

Sonic Team has a bad habit of dropping a gameplay style right when they got it perfect, or fucked it up beyond repair. Classic Sonic games stopped after Sonic 3 & Knuckles, the "Gamecube Sonic" (that's as good of a title I'm getting) ended with Shadow, Adventure games were never seen after 06, and Boost left with Generations. We'll have to wait and see which way the Xtreme Galaxy formula goes.

[Overlord]

Laura, on 05 December 2013 - 04:19 PM, said:

Sonic community shoutouts in Unleashed? What do these amount to? I honestly have no idea what this is about because I gave up on Unleashed a few hours in.

There's a community injoke that goes years back about Tails being a girl - one of the questions in the quizes in Unleashed talked about "Tails having a secret - but what was it". One of the possible answers was that he was a girl =P

[Aerosol]

Jason, on 05 December 2013 - 04:15 PM, said:

Aerosol, on 05 December 2013 - 03:48 PM, said:

Sonic was consistently fast until SLW. There's that.

Marble and Labyrinth.

And there are levels in Mario games that challenge the player by putting Mario in an awkward situation. What is your point?

[GeneHF]

Overlord, on 05 December 2013 - 04:29 PM, said:

Laura, on 05 December 2013 - 04:19 PM, said:

Sonic community shoutouts in Unleashed? What do these amount to? I honestly have no idea what this is about because I gave up on Unleashed a few hours in.

There's a community injoke that goes years back about Tails being a girl - one of the questions in the quizes in Unleashed talked about "Tails having a secret - but what was it". One of the possible answers was that he was a girl =P

It's some bullshit that wasn't a correct answer.

[Jason]

Aerosol, on 05 December 2013 - 04:34 PM, said:

Jason, on 05 December 2013 - 04:15 PM, said:

Aerosol, on 05 December 2013 - 03:48 PM, said:

Sonic was consistently fast until SLW. There's that.

Marble and Labyrinth.

And there are levels in Mario games that challenge the player by putting Mario in an awkward situation. What is your point?

Then I'm confused as to what your problem is, as I have only played the demo myself, but have watched a playthrough. Sonic is not consistently fast, and Mario is not consistently slow.

[STJrInuyasha]

Laura, on 05 December 2013 - 04:01 PM, said:

I don't really think it's fair to bring the fanbase into part of the reason Sonic failed. To put it very bluntly, Sonic Team pay very little, if any, attention to the hardcore fanbase.

If anything I think the problem is that they pay too much attention to it, and try to please everyone at the same time. Generations was practically a "we give up, we don't know what works anymore, so let's throw everything together in this melting pot and dear god please enjoy it" type of game, from how I look at it.

Aerosol, on 05 December 2013 - 03:48 PM, said:

Sonic was consistently fast until SLW. There's that.

Sonic was a platformer with a dash of physics, speed was not the main gimmick until later. Honestly, I think people focus on the speed too much; it was more of a secondary effect of the physics than anything else.

[GerbilSoft]

Overlord, on 05 December 2013 - 04:29 PM, said:

Laura, on 05 December 2013 - 04:19 PM, said:

Sonic community shoutouts in Unleashed? What do these amount to? I honestly have no idea what this is about because I gave up on Unleashed a few hours in.

There's a community injoke that goes years back about Tails being a girl - one of the questions in the quizes in Unleashed talked about "Tails having a secret - but what was it". One of the possible answers was that he was a girl =P

[Laura]

STJrInuyasha, on 05 December 2013 - 03:48 PM, said:

Sonic was a platformer with a dash of physics, speed was not the main gimmick until later. Honestly, I think people focus on the speed too much; it was more of a secondary effect of the physics than anything else.

To be fair, the classics were at least heavily marketed towards speed.