[NoNameAtAll]

Laura, on 05 December 2013 - 11:58 AM, said:

Sonic sells well when his games are good...bottom line. Kids aren't stupid, they know which games are good. Look at Sonic 2006, which was very disappointing sales-wise.

Woah, woah, woah. Sonic 06 did well enough for Platinum Hits. So no, for awhile, folks didn't just go for the games because they were good. They went for it because it was Sonic.

[Shade Vortex]

The thing is, even if Sonic Team finds something that works, they don't want to stick with it too long. That is actually kind of a compliment I can give the series/franchise and the developers. They never stop thinking about new things to do, so staleness is not a complaint we ever really have to worry about. However, it's a double-edged sword. Each gameplay style has had basically a rough beginning. Unleashed had the trial-and-error QTEs that I never thought fit into Sonic (plus he controlled badly at slow speeds), and the slow-and-melee-centric Werehog, plus the required Medals for progression, and dumb RPG-esque stat increases that I found to be needless. Lost World has the issues we all know by now- Forced gimmicks with dumb or unintuitive controls, questionable design choices, and frustrating difficulty, in addition to the recurring problem of too much automation, and also the problem of not sticking with the main style of gameplay (and the main style not being as polished as it should've been as a result of stretching out ideas too far in too little time, a problem Sonic Team keeps encountering thanks to the yearly release schedule for Sonic games and lack of confidence in the replayability/fun of the main style).

[Laura]

NoNameAtAll, on 05 December 2013 - 12:08 PM, said:

Laura, on 05 December 2013 - 11:58 AM, said:

Sonic sells well when his games are good...bottom line. Kids aren't stupid, they know which games are good. Look at Sonic 2006, which was very disappointing sales-wise.

Woah, woah, woah. Sonic 06 did well enough for Platinum Hits. So no, for awhile, folks didn't just go for the games because they were good. They went for it because it was Sonic.

I remember reading an article that said Sonic 2006 was disappointing sales wise. This was around 2007-2008.

Sonic is a huge franchise, it would be surprising if his entry on a big new console that had few games would not be successful.

[Dude]

GeneHF, on 05 December 2013 - 09:50 AM, said:

Also understand that staying too long the same will cause accusations of the formula growing stale. Mega Man got hit by it, Mario's getting hit by it now.

Sonic's odd in that since his transition to 3D, it's been a constant change of formula to find what worked, and the only thing that stuck has been Sonic Rush style, which Unleashed adapted into 3D.

It's been this growing pain to find something that works in both 2D and 3D, AND that keeps the fanbase from further fragmenting that has been the main crux of the design process lately. That's all there really is to it.

This is pretty much the biggest problem they have. Even if they did just decide to up and make a fully 'classic' sonic game again, they'd be back to square 1 after a game or two, because of the risk of being stuck with the 'rehasher' label that haunts so many other developers. Each experiment with game design they make teaches them valuable lessons about which mechanics work with certain spatial designs. Give it time, they'll polish their current model and then move onto something new. I do think they should slow down a little, since the pure volume of Sonic games makes the library seem abit saturated, and it would give them more time to polish their experiments. But I can't even imagine how difficult it would be to convince a room full of executives that this thing that they've been making every year or so that is a veritable cash cow might be better if they made *less* of it.

[Laura]

Dude, on 05 December 2013 - 12:16 PM, said:

GeneHF, on 05 December 2013 - 09:50 AM, said:

Also understand that staying too long the same will cause accusations of the formula growing stale. Mega Man got hit by it, Mario's getting hit by it now.

Sonic's odd in that since his transition to 3D, it's been a constant change of formula to find what worked, and the only thing that stuck has been Sonic Rush style, which Unleashed adapted into 3D.

It's been this growing pain to find something that works in both 2D and 3D, AND that keeps the fanbase from further fragmenting that has been the main crux of the design process lately. That's all there really is to it.

This is pretty much the biggest problem they have. Even if they did just decide to up and make a fully 'classic' sonic game again, they'd be back to square 1 after a game or two, because of the risk of being stuck with the 'rehasher' label that haunts so many other developers. Each experiment with game design they make teaches them valuable lessons about which mechanics work with certain spatial designs. Give it time, they'll polish their current model and then move onto something new. I do think they should slow down a little, since the pure volume of Sonic games makes the library seem abit saturated, and it would give them more time to polish their experiments. But I can't even imagine how difficult it would be to convince a room full of executives that this thing that they've been making every year or so that is a veritable cash cow might be better if they made *less* of it.

Then again, is it actually acceptable to wait for several games for Sonic Team to get the formula right.

Imagine if Mario Galaxy wasn't good, Mario Galaxy 2 was mediocre, Mario Galaxy 3 was okay and finally Mario Galaxy 4 was actually good.

I'm sure many development teams could put out good games if they had such an accepting and devoted fanbase.

[The KKM]

Saying they've been afraid of getting labeled as stuck on a formula since the 3d era misses the part where as soon as Sonic 3 they wanted to change things up, and then spent the whole Saturn era going "Well we don't want to keep doing the same thing".

They've always used the idea of "We peaked on this gameplay, let's change".

[winterhell]

Isn't anybody seeing that almost every(if not every) bad Sonic game has one thing in common. The friggin homing attack. Even all the 2D/2.5D games people complain about. Designing the level and gameplay around not having it would already be a big step.

[Aerosol]

Then the homing attack isn't the problem. The level design is. Level design has been the weak link for a long time now though, so that's not new. It's just super-apparent with Sonic Lost World. Take Sonic 1 with spindash enabled, for instance. You wouldn't suddenly turn around and say that the spindash is the problem, because Sonic 1's level design doesn't make use of it. It's just another tool for you to get around and do stuff with.

This post has been edited by Aerosol: 05 December 2013 - 02:20 PM

[TheKazeblade]

I wouldn't go as far as saying current Sonic Team is bad. I think what it boils down to is that they don't seem to be able to hit a level of consistency. For instance, I hold that Generation's Seaside Hill Act 2 is without a doubt the best-designed 3d Sonic level ever made. Alternate paths galore, beautiful art, and level nuance that depends on the skill of the player. However, in the exact same game, we have to deal with the abysmally designed Time Eater boss. Sonic Team truly has moments of brilliance, but by constantly changing their gameplay styles, they have not built the necessary knowledge needed to discern what about the good levels are good at their core, and what is superfluous. What's more, I don't feel that they feel confident enough in their strengths to build that consistency they need to achieve a solid product every time. Something needs to happen at Sega that allows the opportunity for this to happen.

[Dark Sonic]

winterhell, on 05 December 2013 - 01:59 PM, said:

Isn't anybody seeing that almost every(if not every) bad Sonic game has one thing in common. The friggin homing attack. Even all the 2D/2.5D games people complain about. Designing the level and gameplay around not having it would already be a big step.

That's like saying every 3d Mario game where he wears long sleeves is a good game.

[winterhell]

Dark Sonic, on 05 December 2013 - 02:37 PM, said:

winterhell, on 05 December 2013 - 01:59 PM, said:

Isn't anybody seeing that almost every(if not every) bad Sonic game has one thing in common. The friggin homing attack. Even all the 2D/2.5D games people complain about. Designing the level and gameplay around not having it would already be a big step.

That's like saying every 3d Mario game where he wears long sleeves is a good game.

Ok let me explain my problem with the homing attack. Being used to the classic games, I try to land on an enemy instead of homing to him. That thends to be hard due to the bad air control(because why need it when you have homing) and/or not rebouncing as good as with the homing attack. For example Episode 1 is a very bad offender here.

[Aerosol]

So the answer to you question is that the reason it seems like nobody else shares your opinion is because nobody else plays the games like you do.

[Dark Sonic]

winterhell, on 05 December 2013 - 02:47 PM, said:

Dark Sonic, on 05 December 2013 - 02:37 PM, said:

winterhell, on 05 December 2013 - 01:59 PM, said:

Isn't anybody seeing that almost every(if not every) bad Sonic game has one thing in common. The friggin homing attack. Even all the 2D/2.5D games people complain about. Designing the level and gameplay around not having it would already be a big step.

That's like saying every 3d Mario game where he wears long sleeves is a good game.

Ok let me explain my problem with the homing attack. Being used to the classic games, I try to land on an enemy instead of homing to him. That thends to be hard due to the bad air control(because why need it when you have homing) and/or not rebouncing as good as with the homing attack. For example Episode 1 is a very bad offender here.

I'll admit, the lack of rebound is kind of a pain in the ass, but I feel like with the speeds Sonic goes at it's necessary at least in 3D. In 2D though, it might be nice as a shield or something.

Episode 1 is bad for many more reasons than just the jumping though.

Also there is no reason why we can't have classic rebound and homing attack in the same game. In fact that could be used for some interesting level design. Homing attacking is the easy way across but cancels the vertical rebound you would otherwise get from jumping on an enemy at a high distance, meaning if you could jump across a chain you could get to a higher path

This post has been edited by Dark Sonic: 05 December 2013 - 03:05 PM

[Captain L]

TheKazeblade, on 05 December 2013 - 02:20 PM, said:

I wouldn't go as far as saying current Sonic Team is bad. I think what it boils down to is that they don't seem to be able to hit a level of consistency. For instance, I hold that Generation's Seaside Hill Act 2 is without a doubt the best-designed 3d Sonic level ever made. Alternate paths galore, beautiful art, and level nuance that depends on the skill of the player. However, in the exact same game, we have to deal with the abysmally designed Time Eater boss. Sonic Team truly has moments of brilliance, but by constantly changing their gameplay styles, they have not built the necessary knowledge needed to discern what about the good levels are good at their core, and what is superfluous. What's more, I don't feel that they feel confident enough in their strengths to build that consistency they need to achieve a solid product every time. Something needs to happen at Sega that allows the opportunity for this to happen.

This is a problem that plagues every single Sonic game. I have never played a Sonic game that doesn't have something bad in it. Sonic 1 has the sudden gameplay shift in Marble Zone and Labyrinth Zone, Sonic 2 and CD both have bad object placement and terrible special stages, Sonic 3 & Knuckles was the closest, with the game not taking the Insta-Shield into account (that's the best I can come up with?), and we all know the problems all the 3D games had. Even Generations had Classic Crisis City and both acts of Planet Wisp. Sonic Team has almost never been able to make a consistently good experience.

[Jayextee]

How can Sonic Team know what makes their games good when a dedicated community of researchers and modders can't even agree? It's an impossible goal, surely. Tongue so firmly in cheek I'm licking my own inner ear.