[.Luke]

Visually horrible? That never stopped Super Mario 64 from scoring a couple million downloads on the Virtual Console, and Sonic's Genesis titles have been resold and ported for almost every console generation after their release. On top of that, Sonic Xtreme has that mysterious, canned, never-seen-the-light-of-day stigma to it, why wouldn't it sell on that note alone? Who wouldn't want to play a recreation of a game that never got released, especially if the quality of the game play is amazing and still hasn't been done before?

I mean, yes, not everybody would be tossing their money at the screen, knowing how divided this fanbase is over things like this, but I think there would be enough interest in the game to justify the effort. I think Sonic Xtreme is common knowledge in the whole Sonic fanbase, so this would get noticed very quickly, even if it doesn't attract much interest from non-Sonic fans, but they most likely wouldn't be buying a Sonic game anyway.

Also, that is true about UDK, but you can get a license for commercial use in games, and that's pretty cheap. ($99, and a 25% royalty fee after grossing enough sales.) However, the situation is a bit sticky no thanks to the nature of this project, being fan-made, and I'm not sure if professional game devs are treated any differently in terms of the UDK license, if this project were to be picked up by a big-name publisher like SEGA. This is full of unknowns for me, honestly. I hope this doesn't complicate AXSX's development.

[JaxTH]

This just sounds all bad.

[Strife]

The way I see it, the moment you start needing money for a fangame is the moment you should start to consider converting it into an original project. Unless you are officially sanctioned by the company you're mimicking, pouring money into a fangame seems like an incredibly risky venture. What if you get C&D'd in the middle of it? All of that money will have been wasted, and in the case of Kickstarter, people will start demanding refunds.

For your project specifically... based on the assets that you need to finish up, it may be worthwhile to simply save up for it yourself, especially if you can re-use those assets in the future for other projects. Most of the stuff I've been buying for Freedom Planet can be used for future games as well, such as the exporters and sound effects and whatnot.

This post has been edited by Strife: 19 May 2013 - 05:15 AM

[Andrew75]

Strife, on 19 May 2013 - 05:10 AM, said:

The way I see it, the moment you start needing money for a fangame is the moment you should start to consider converting it into an original project. Unless you are officially sanctioned by the company you're mimicking, pouring money into a fangame seems like an incredibly risky venture. What if you get C&D'd in the middle of it? All of that money will have been wasted, and in the case of Kickstarter, people will start demanding refunds.

For your project specifically... based on the assets that you need to finish up, it may be worthwhile to simply save up for it yourself, especially if you can re-use those assets in the future for other projects. Most of the stuff I've been buying for Freedom Planet can be used for future games as well, such as the exporters and sound effects and whatnot.

If I don't hear from Sega regarding submission guidelines, I wont be persisting to take the next step leading all the way up to kickstarter.
I've already put around $700.00 of my own money into this project so far for a few programmed odds and ends here and there. I'm not afraid to put more in if it means getting more high priority issues fixed like replacing the current collision system with a new one.
With kick starter I could pay for some really amazing additions that I don't think that I would want to afford on my own, and yeah without Sega's consent, I wouldn't want to fund the project if its out of other peoples pockets. I know that could get very dangerous.
If I get approved to fund the project for non-profit or even if Sega decides to accept the project for a more official release, I wouldn't keep any of the kick starter fund for myself, 100% of it would go to the project. In the case that there is something left over, I would hope that I could divide it up and refund an equal amount to the donors.

This post has been edited by Andrew75: 19 May 2013 - 07:56 AM

[Black Squirrel]

Andrew75, on 17 May 2013 - 02:12 PM, said:

Sonic CD by Taxman is actually a fan game at its heart and no one complained.

This... isn't really the same thing at all. Taxman offered a cost-effective solution to a problem Sega of America wanted solving. Your project is not that. And it's certainly not a cue to open the floodgates so that every single Sonic-related idea ever can be somehow "legitimised" by this company.

Andrew75, on 19 May 2013 - 07:43 AM, said:

I've already put around $700.00 of my own money into this project so far for a few programmed odds and ends here and there. I'm not afraid to put more in if it means getting more high priority issues fixed like replacing the current collision system with a new one.

Yeah uh... don't do that? I mean really - investing in a fangame is all kinds of dumb.

.Luke, on 18 May 2013 - 06:29 PM, said:

Visually horrible? That never stopped Super Mario 64 from scoring a couple million downloads on the Virtual Console, and Sonic's Genesis titles have been resold and ported for almost every console generation after their release. On top of that, Sonic Xtreme has that mysterious, canned, never-seen-the-light-of-day stigma to it, why wouldn't it sell on that note alone? Who wouldn't want to play a recreation of a game that never got released, especially if the quality of the game play is amazing and still hasn't been done before?

Sonic X-treme was garbage, and there is no money to be made by targeting a select group of hardcore fans. Fans so hardcore in fact, that they're willing to look past the fact this isn't actually Sonic X-treme at all - it's a (perhaps honourable) attempt at emulating the past, but is ultimately no different than something like this.



This is a silly plan. If a fangame costs too much to make, stop making it. Any talk of working for free or not aiming to make a profit or whatever isn't going to slide either. If you want to make a game and distribute things through the proper channels, you'll have to drop the "Sonic" stuff - it's pretty simple. A magic ticket letting you make Sonic games for Sega just isn't going to happen unless you can prove the company desperately needs you, and no versions of Sonic X-treme will ever do that. This is a game they cancelled because it didn't meet the standards of 1996 - it's now 2013

This post has been edited by Black Squirrel: 19 May 2013 - 08:48 AM

[.Luke]

That's a bit hard to swallow, but those are good points. I guess my fascination with Sonic Xtreme kept me from seeing what I already do in my own projects, hoping this would be exceptionally different from the rest. (Do only the hardcores actually care about Xtreme? I guess I don't know this fanbase well enough.) Although I will be working on a Shantae fan game soon myself, I wouldn't ever dare put any money into it, so I'm using cheap software I've already had for years to build it.

Even when I do upgrade to the latest version of Game Maker on Steam, it won't be specifically for that fan game, but for original projects. My friend is still nagging other people to help out with the art, but I keep explaining to him they won't ever do it for free; the world just doesn't run on dreams. And paying artists only makes the chances of getting a C&D an even bigger gamble, because we'll have actual money tied up in the game. He's been in for one extremely painful revelation after another about fan games with me.

Back on topic, maybe a less legally complex route is in order for this project? It's rare that 3D Sonic fan games exist just because they take so long to develop, and I'm honestly surprised SRB2 is literally almost done after more than 13 years of work. Does this mean AXSX might be in for the long haul? Could be better than getting a C&D and not doing it at all, but at the same time, I'm a bit torn here, I don't know what to think anymore.

[Andrew75]

Black Squirrel, on 19 May 2013 - 08:47 AM, said:

to a problem Sega of America wanted solving. Your project is not that. And it's certainly not a cue to open the floodgates so that every single Sonic-related idea ever can be somehow "legitimised" by this company.

Andrew75, on 19 May 2013 - 07:43 AM, said:

I've already put around $700.00 of my own money into this project so far for a few programmed odds and ends here and there. I'm not afraid to put more in if it means getting more high priority issues fixed like replacing the current collision system with a new one.

Yeah uh... don't do that? I mean really - investing in a fangame is all kinds of dumb.

Im sorry? I don't think of it as being domb at all, this is my hobby. People pour money into hobbies all the time. be it building racecar models, planting a flower garden, or collecting some type of nicknacks like video games.

[Sparks]

Black Squirrel, on 17 May 2013 - 02:01 PM, said:

And I can guarantee Sega doesn't need game ideas.

I think it really boils down to this. Right now it seems like Sonic Teams got a pretty solid plan of where Sonic is going the next few years.

[Flare]

IMO if you do plan on going down this route then I would not make it a Sonic branded game. Why put so much effort and money into something that if Sega did take an interest in, would take control of it and then you loose creative direction.

The recent releases of games - which are different from this project because they were ports (WONDERFULLY done but still ports), everything was something Sega had done and didn't stray too far from the original product - where as this project because it is based on an unfinished game you have control over level design, gimmicks, ect. the minute a company owns what you do you loose the job you are currently doing. Then what happens when the company wants the project to go in a different way or a design choice you don't agree with. That of course is taking the approach that they care.

It is quite an ambitious "dream".

[BlazeHedgehog]

Kickstarting a fangame is a bad idea. A really, really, really bad idea. Raising any kind of money for it is also a bad idea. It sends the wrong kind of signal in every possible way and could jeopardize more than just your own project.

Sega, in a lot of ways, lets fangames exist by turning a blind eye to them. They should, legally, be shutting these things down, but because they largely pretend that they do not exist, there's no problem. If you start trying to profit off of fangames, that may force Sega's hand on the entire subject. While I'm sure that won't stop some of the more rebellious at Sonic Retro, it would be a damaging blow to a significant portion of the community.

Do not play with fire.

[winterhell]

Wow guys are you being serious? "If it doesn't print money why even bother doing it". Isn't wanting to see the finished game enough of a reason? Just because the original studio is not interested in doing said game, be it Streets of Rage 4, Comix Zone 2, Toki HD Remake, you name it, doesn't mean some people don't want it badly.
Please go flaming people that are spending money on toys they are not even using. There are plenty of those.

[Aerosol]

winterhell, on 19 May 2013 - 06:17 PM, said:

Wow guys are you being serious? "If it doesn't print money why even bother doing it". Isn't wanting to see the finished game enough of a reason? Just because the original studio is not interested in doing said game, be it Streets of Rage 4, Comix Zone 2, Toki HD Remake, you name it, doesn't mean some people don't want it badly.
Please go flaming people that are spending money on toys they are not even using. There are plenty of those.

Or how about we don't flame people because of their hobbies at all? We could do that, too.

[Dr. Mecha]

Black Squirrel, on 19 May 2013 - 08:47 AM, said:

Andrew75, on 17 May 2013 - 02:12 PM, said:

Sonic CD by Taxman is actually a fan game at its heart and no one complained.

This... isn't really the same thing at all. Taxman offered a cost-effective solution to a problem Sega of America wanted solving. Your project is not that. And it's certainly not a cue to open the floodgates so that every single Sonic-related idea ever can be somehow "legitimised" by this company.

Andrew75, on 19 May 2013 - 07:43 AM, said:

I've already put around $700.00 of my own money into this project so far for a few programmed odds and ends here and there. I'm not afraid to put more in if it means getting more high priority issues fixed like replacing the current collision system with a new one.

Yeah uh... don't do that? I mean really - investing in a fangame is all kinds of dumb.

.Luke, on 18 May 2013 - 06:29 PM, said:

Visually horrible? That never stopped Super Mario 64 from scoring a couple million downloads on the Virtual Console, and Sonic's Genesis titles have been resold and ported for almost every console generation after their release. On top of that, Sonic Xtreme has that mysterious, canned, never-seen-the-light-of-day stigma to it, why wouldn't it sell on that note alone? Who wouldn't want to play a recreation of a game that never got released, especially if the quality of the game play is amazing and still hasn't been done before?

Sonic X-treme was garbage, and there is no money to be made by targeting a select group of hardcore fans. Fans so hardcore in fact, that they're willing to look past the fact this isn't actually Sonic X-treme at all - it's a (perhaps honourable) attempt at emulating the past, but is ultimately no different than something like this.



This is a silly plan. If a fangame costs too much to make, stop making it. Any talk of working for free or not aiming to make a profit or whatever isn't going to slide either. If you want to make a game and distribute things through the proper channels, you'll have to drop the "Sonic" stuff - it's pretty simple. A magic ticket letting you make Sonic games for Sega just isn't going to happen unless you can prove the company desperately needs you, and no versions of Sonic X-treme will ever do that. This is a game they cancelled because it didn't meet the standards of 1996 - it's now 2013

I agree with Black Squirrel on this one. A fangame should be a simple indie game that a teenager could create with Multimedia Fusion or Construct. This however, is too big for you and your SonicXtreme Pals to even complete. Plus, I prefer that you guys continue to collect as much data and resources from that scrapped game as opposed to recreate it. I know that you want to play that game for yourself, but recreating that game (or modernizing any games for that matter) and focus on gathering as much information as possible.

So yeah, Kickstarter's out of the question!

[Dashtube]

If I recall correctly, I think Eddie Lebron asked for "donations" (for special perks) to fund his Sonic Fan Film on his website.

[.Luke]

I dunno, I think it would be possible to finish this game, just most likely in Valve-time, like SRB2, due to Xtreme's scale and complexity. Something like this couldn't be easily finished in free time in a matter of months; it could take years. It's not your average fan game put together in Sonic Worlds or Game Maker at all.

Also, I've been really unnerved at the thought of an organized fund-raiser for this myself through the whole topic, and Kickstarter probably wouldn't allow fan-made game projects anyway, because they do actually overview submissions, iirc; it's very rare that I see fan-made posters get kickstarted there. And from what Black Squirrel said, contacting SEGA might not net a desirable response, either, if Xtreme is far outside their big picture for Sonic.

I think it would probably be safe to open up for Paypal donations, so you can buy more physical equipment for research and development, if it's needed, but paying other programmers to help out with the workload would probably have to come out of your own pocket, and even that's still a gray area.

_{EDIT : Got ninja's by Dashtube}

Dashtube said:

If I recall correctly, I think Eddie Lebron asked for "donations" (for special perks) to fund his Sonic Fan Film on his website.

Yeah, I've seen that animated Sonic fan film get donations too. (Although the bulk of the $9 million for production still came out of the creator's own pocket, though.)

This post has been edited by .Luke: 21 May 2013 - 12:10 AM