[Tiller]

From the looks of things you seem to have you head on straight with some ideas for implementing level design based on it. Level design is entirely dependant on how you guys build Sonic's movement and abilities on top of the design focus (speed/flow/exploration/etc). GDK will likely need a lot of tweaks to get it to where your concept images envision the game but hope you nail it. I'd love to help because I got ideas but I can't make sexy art. The most I could do is coax ideas out as an advisor but I hope you guys find someone who can do the whole nine yards and has relevant experience to back it up.

It's also good to know this project ain't dead.

[Andrew75]

Tiller, on 27 September 2014 - 01:38 AM, said:

From the looks of things you seem to have you head on straight with some ideas for implementing level design based on it. Level design is entirely dependant on how you guys build Sonic's movement and abilities on top of the design focus (speed/flow/exploration/etc). GDK will likely need a lot of tweaks to get it to where your concept images envision the game but hope you nail it. I'd love to help because I got ideas but I can't make sexy art. The most I could do is coax ideas out as an advisor but I hope you guys find someone who can do the whole nine yards and has relevant experience to back it up.

It's also good to know this project ain't dead.

Make the fun layouts first than go for eye candy later!

[Azukara]

Yeah, the plan isn't for the level designer to make crazy setpieces. That's the artists' job, though any particular setpiece ideas the level designer has can be pitched to me and the other artists/designers and we can make our own spins on it and go from there.

And I'm not really looking for anyone who can draw incredibly well. I'm just looking for someone who has an eye for making a level that is fun, and can draw it out. You know, the ones with a lot of slopes and inclines, but with an equal amount of flatter, more platforming-oriented sections. Open spaces that don't feel 'too open' or vacant, but yet definitely not something set up like an obstacle course, such as Unleashed or Generations or anything. Something a bit more.. Adventure-ish.

I can make pieces for it, but I can't really make the whole picture for it too well, and that's where I'm asking for the help.

This post has been edited by Azukara: 27 September 2014 - 06:21 PM

[Kharen]

Question: You want a Level Designer, not a Modeler. Exactly what needs to be able to be contributed from somebody with the position? I mean, I might give it a try when I'm in a better position to do so (My computer is broken and I need to replace it. Should be replaced within a month of now.) However, I only have experience in SketchUp's free version, and I can only really do models that look like they'd belong in an N64 game. If anything I came up with was to be useful in any way, it would need a second person to kind of add the visual appearance, working versions of setpieces rather than a static placeholder (for instance, making a bridge that collapses where a placeholder would be), and scale it appropriately.

Anyways, what kind of level tropes are you planning out? I mean, if I had an idea what to try putting together to see if I was any good at it, what kind of level would I be designing? Are we talking super realistic, like Unleashed, where everything has more of a rhyme and reason to it, or more like a 3D Classic game where there could be a floating platform or landmass without needing to be realistic in how it's being held up in the air? Is everything going to be 3D, or would 2D sections (where logical, such as a bridge or cliff-side ledges) be a reasonable addition? If I had the player cut through a settlement, what level of technology would be expected? Something like a Black Knight style village in the woods, or a more modern City Escape/Empire City-era environment?

What kind of detail can I expect when it comes to setpieces? I mean, let's say I think up something like flying enemies swooping in and destroying a bridge that Sonic's crossing. Would my design be limited to something like the whale chase in Emerald Coast, could I expect to give the player a Quick-Time Event to climb up the falling wreckage Unleashed-Style, or something completely different like the player jumping off the bridge at the right moment to Homing Attack the enemies as they swoop by. The bridge is still destroyed, but the player is able to strategically time their Homing Attacks so that the flying enemies "carry" him towards a new route that he can jump to. Would something that elaborate be possible?

Anyways, if you don't mind being rather patient for getting it, and can expand upon an N64-style model as a starting point, I could give it a try. No promises on if it goes through and I can finish it, though. I've got college classes right now, a broken computer, and a couple projects of my own that I'm working on. Still, I've never done a 3D level design before and I'd like to give it a shot to see if I'd be any good with it.

[Tiller]

^ They have a few level tropes and names in the old OP but who knows what has changed.

Anyway my mistake. You're looking for someone to stitch together set pieces, gimmicks, and add other ideas to make sure the stages are unique, fun and cohesive. I think I might be able to handle that if you can deal with MS paint tier concepts. Kharen is right though. From what I've learned of Sonic level design, it's only limited by what you can manipulate out of Sonic's basics. The core of Sonic's gameplay and movement have to be completely solid before you start churning out stages. Otherwise you end up trying to shove a ball shaped Sonic through a square hole.

[Azukara]

@Kharen

I'm gonna answer a few of these questions for both you and whoever else reading, so we're all on the same page and stuff.

Kharen, on 27 September 2014 - 08:16 PM, said:

Question: You want a Level Designer, not a Modeler. Exactly what needs to be able to be contributed from somebody with the position?

An isometric map, as well as a top view (if necessary for the particular piece you do), and enough art skill to make something where we can tell what's going on. Even if it's sketchy and primitive, that's fine, as long as we can make a bit of sense of it.

As for knowledge requirements, I'd say understanding what sort of layouts would be 'cohesive and fun to play' (if I could borrow that wording from Tiller for a moment, lol) is what we're looking for the most in a level layout designer. Someone who can look at the set-pieces we build and find ways to make them flow into each other, but also leave room to breathe. Someone who can think up layouts that aren't afraid to try alternate routes, can be open for exploration sometimes, and is based on slopey terrain / loops / runnable walls / ramps etc as well as flatter areas.

And yeah, we don't really need a modeler for the levels at the moment. We've got who we need for that. All that's needing to be done is drawing these layouts, which will be followed by me and whoever else trying to polish and make more references from it to show attention to detail (or possibly adding more pieces as well), and then the modeler carves it out.

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Anyways, what kind of level tropes are you planning out? I mean, if I had an idea what to try putting together to see if I was any good at it, what kind of level would I be designing? Are we talking super realistic, like Unleashed, where everything has more of a rhyme and reason to it, or more like a 3D Classic game where there could be a floating platform or landmass without needing to be realistic in how it's being held up in the air?

I posted the level list in the original OP. But since I hid that original post in spoiler tags (thus noone would be obligated to look there), I'll post them here:

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The Stages:

• Cascade Grove Zone - roaming hills, checker-block forest/valley partially adrift in the sky
  
• Alpine Eruption Zone - snowy mountain tops sleeping over a (currently) inactive volcano
  
• Bumper Boulevard Zone - a party-themed carnival/casino city with a bit of faulty wiring
  
• Floral Springs Zone - rural Japan-esque countryside with steaming geysers and strong water currents
  
• Deserted Ridge Zone - a collapsing diamond mine hidden under a dusty canyon
  
• Windy Ruins Zone - a spooky castle area being swept away by monstrous storms
  
• Transit Metropolis Zone - ???????
  
• ???????

I can go into more detail in private discussion, mostly because I don't wanna spill all the beans on the assets and whatnot. Trying to hide your content enough to keep things a surprise yet let people know what you're doing to get recruit is hard. ;<;

But yeah, it's a lot of classic-esque esque settings. If the level suits itself to have floating areas or whatnot, then so be it. Everything's meant to feel established though, yet all fantastic at the same time.

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Is everything going to be 3D, or would 2D sections (where logical, such as a bridge or cliff-side ledges) be a reasonable addition?

3D is going to be the majority of the level design, though a few areas in the game may have small segments of 2D level design. It's definitely not going to be a regular thing in stages, though, and at most be segments that don't take very long to get through.

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If I had the player cut through a settlement, what level of technology would be expected? Something like a Black Knight style village in the woods, or a more modern City Escape/Empire City-era environment?

More modern, for sure. Anything more ancient or medieval is left for the later "Windy Ruins Zone".

Quote

What kind of detail can I expect when it comes to setpieces? I mean, let's say I think up something like flying enemies swooping in and destroying a bridge that Sonic's crossing. Would my design be limited to something like the whale chase in Emerald Coast, could I expect to give the player a Quick-Time Event to climb up the falling wreckage Unleashed-Style, or something completely different like the player jumping off the bridge at the right moment to Homing Attack the enemies as they swoop by. The bridge is still destroyed, but the player is able to strategically time their Homing Attacks so that the flying enemies "carry" him towards a new route that he can jump to. Would something that elaborate be possible?

Never against cinematic moments, but definitely not to the point where it's limited to automation; we're going for only very sparse amounts of that in the game. Quick time events are a no-no, but the "homing attack the enemies as they swoop by and carry Sonic across to a new route" thing, yes.

Most of the ideas for level design are to take advantage of running, jumping, rolling, Spindashing, and the jump dash / homing attack. That's the basic actions the player will be doing for most (if not all) of the game over anything else, so building areas based around using them would be ideal (although I'm not really for areas that force the player to use homing chains, for example).

But yeah, hope any of this extra info helps anyone looking at this.

On another hand though, its been a good few days since I posted this request, and I've had a sort of change of heart. I feel like I should probably take back my role as main level layout designer, since I feel like I can't describe what I'm looking for to someone well enough without them knowing the ins and outs of this game like I do so far, so I feel like I'm asking for way too much to request this. Am I, or is this is all reasonable? I'm gonna have to let it not get to me, cuz if we need help then we need help.

Regardless, I guess it's nice to see who can offer their assistance in this, and I can get that person to at least work as an assistant level designer. We do need all the help we can get, after all.

This post has been edited by Azukara: 01 October 2014 - 01:48 AM

[silva rymes]

Hello, everyone, I'd like to introduce myself. I'm Silva, the... *looks at notes* (Co-director? Oh, okay.) Co-director of this project! Azukara's had me as his right hand man since I came onto this project about two years ago to help keep it afloat when it was sinking faster than Omega in a water stage. Since then, I've done my best to handle organization, carry out recruitment, encouraging proper communication, as well as keeping positive and creative energies among our team members continuously flowing even in our downtime. I had a heavy hand in not only in the resurrection of the project, but in its re-imagining this past year as well. More recently, I felt this new vision necessitated some intense re-planning to make use of the time given to us by these past Summer months. The streamlining of the process has pushed us in a whole new direction, while still keeping in mind what Azukara set out to do at its inception. We've made really good progress behind the scenes with new faces, and much more concentration on what's important for our team and project.

Prepare for more useful insight on the project, my arguments with Azukara, and bad jokes from me soon. :]

This post has been edited by silva rymes: 02 October 2014 - 12:46 PM

[Kharen]

Still wanting to sketch up a level idea, and had a couple more questions.

Are there multiple Acts per Zone? Cascade Grove is described as rolling hills with a forest and valley in the sky. Would that be a hill-filled plain for Act 1, a forest for Act 2, and a valley for Act 3, or one unified level with all three?

How are boss fights spaced out? Does each Zone have it's own boss battle, or will be be something like Heroes where it's a consistant Zone, Zone, Boss pattern, or will it just be boss fights spaced randomly apart? Are boss battles set in stone, or will you wait for each level to be planned out before working out an appropriate boss?

[silva rymes]

Kharen, on 02 October 2014 - 03:15 PM, said:

Still wanting to sketch up a level idea, and had a couple more questions.

Are there multiple Acts per Zone? Cascade Grove is described as rolling hills with a forest and valley in the sky. Would that be a hill-filled plain for Act 1, a forest for Act 2, and a valley for Act 3, or one unified level with all three?

How are boss fights spaced out? Does each Zone have it's own boss battle, or will be be something like Heroes where it's a consistent Zone, Zone, Boss pattern, or will it just be boss fights spaced randomly apart? Are boss battles set in stone, or will you wait for each level to be planned out before working out an appropriate boss?

No problem, Kharen. For the game we're going with 2 Acts per Zone. Most likely with the end of every Act 2 having that Zone's Boss, or just pushing the Boss into its own Act. Cascade Grove is... well, allow me to take a snippet from our GDD:

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A massive grove of star-shaped trees across flowery fields and checkered hillsides. Filled to the brim with color and life, it is alive with waterfalls, sparkling ponds and a majestic mountain backdrop. The outer cove of the islands these stages take place on are more tropical, with palm trees and small beach areas. The cliff sides are touched by roaming clouds, making the setting an exciting, colorful, and beautiful first stage.

However, this place is anything but safe after a certain point. Earthquakes start to rumble and are leading the area to crumble and topple a bit. What's going on?

With that in mind, I wanted to have it transition from a little coastal starting area into a beautiful, open field/meadow-type area which becomes thicker as it enters a more forest-like area. As we make our way through the bustling forest, we encounter rushing waters that propel us forward into new dangers as well as into the second Act. At this point, we continue with the forest trope until we begin to make our way down waterfalls and up cliff areas, eventually ending up high into the clouds for a bit, before making our way back down back into the forest. After this last bit of forest we end up back into an open field, though having a more ominous feel than before. At this point we come rolling into an area that alludes to what may be waiting for us in the Boss battle ahead. As with all Bosses, we want them to heavily reflect major plot elements that will reveal themselves as progress through the stages are made by the player. At this time, we have the main idea of each Boss's theme with a few of their physical concepts fleshed out as much as their stages, but are saving them for after each stage is created as we can definitely have more freedom with them at that point.

[Kharen]

Interesting. That's the opposite of what initially came to mind. You guys said that you were going for an open-world design plan rather than an Unleashed/Generations style hallway run. My first thought was to start in a forest with maybe 30 seconds to a minute of Generations-style level design before leading out into a huge open field for a bit of surprise for the player as the first major setpiece.

Now, regarding the open-world concept, I had an idea on how to make designing the level a bit easier. You know how in 3D Zelda games, you can hit the Z-Button to lock the camera on a targeted enemy? I was thinking, what if you had invisible waypoints scattered throughout the levels. Each area of the level corresponds to a nearby waypoint, and the player could hit a button to swivel the camera towards the matching waypoint.

Continuing to use Zelda as a reference, imagine if the level was Ocarina of Time's "Hyrule Field". If you're closest to Hyrule Castle, the camera button would swivel towards Hyrule Castle to show you that the closest route towards progression is that way. If you manage to head more towards Gerudo Valley, the camera would point that way when prompted, to show that the route over there is the closest path for progression compared to your current location.

That way, even in the worst case scenario where you find that your level is too wide open and unfocused, the player can hit a button for a sort of "Where should I go next?" hint. Of course, that shouldn't happen, but even with a well-designed level, it could be used to help find alternate routes and pathways.

Anyways, I tried printing out some isometric graph paper at the college, but the printer didn't want to cooperate. Now that I'm finished with homework, I'll see if I can get a better printout so I can try sketching some ideas out.

[Azukara]

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..open-world design plan..

Oh dang.

The game hasn't really been 'open world' since the project started waaayyy long ago (about 2010-2011 when it was still a Blitzsonic game lol), honestly. Since then, that idea was thrown out the window since we wanted to focus more on just making a really dang good game instead. We may have never been too terribly clear on that since we switched over ideas (due to vagueness and hiding the game's development and info away, completely my fault there), but without a doubt since the beginning of this year the game's philosophy hasn't been based on open-world level design. It's far too complex for Sonic game standards, IMO.

The idea's been since we reorganized to make level design very similar to Adventure 1 if it had more paths to choose from and less automation. Or in better words, SA1 with a pinch of SRB2 influence possibly? Levels are split into acts and have their own sort of progression based on both the geography of the stage as well as story events. Sure, it's a lot less ambitious as the idea of an open-world game, but I'd rather deliver the best dang game possible instead of risk it so hard on something I don't think will work too well in the first place.

Sorry if I/we confused you or anyone else. :X

[Kharen]

Oh thank God...

I was willing to give it a shot, but open-world Sonic Zones sounded like a huge challenge and I wasn't even sure I'd be able to do anything that good with the idea. A good open-world level would be pretty fun, though. Just too much of a task for me to attempt. Like I said earlier, this is my first time trying to design anything 3D. So far, my track record's only been 2D stuff, and even then, it was a demo of a Zelda/Metroid game, not a side-scrolling Sonic game.

[Tiller]

When people say more open Sonic I never took it as open OPEN world. It just means you aren't pushed through a tube with the occasional jump to automate you somewhere else. An entirely open world Sonic game would seriously pose problems to the basic structuring of Sonic's formula. The Green Hill open world experiment in GDK illustrates the problems perfectly with lack of direction and freedom to bypass anything that resembles a challenge in the level design.What I would assume in an enhanced Adventure sort of design is that Sonic always needs to be pointed to go someplace "B" but given multiple options to get there from someplace "A" and not the will of the dreaded dash pad.

silva rymes, on 02 October 2014 - 05:49 PM, said:

With that in mind, I wanted to have it transition from a little coastal starting area into a beautiful, open field/meadow-type area which becomes thicker as it enters a more forest-like area. As we make our way through the bustling forest, we encounter rushing waters that propel us forward into new dangers as well as into the second Act. At this point, we continue with the forest trope until we begin to make our way down waterfalls and up cliff areas, eventually ending up high into the clouds for a bit, before making our way back down back into the forest. After this last bit of forest we end up back into an open field, though having a more ominous feel than before. At this point we come rolling into an area that alludes to what may be waiting for us in the Boss battle ahead. As with all Bosses, we want them to heavily reflect major plot elements that will reveal themselves as progress through the stages are made by the player. At this time, we have the main idea of each Boss's theme with a few of their physical concepts fleshed out as much as their stages, but are saving them for after each stage is created as we can definitely have more freedom with them at that point.

From the sounds of the original trope description and concept art it felt more like big parts of valley/forest/plains were suspended in the sky. I imagined something completely different, where massive trees and branches are interwoven in massive chunks of land forming plains and hills held slightly aloft over a valley backdrop. I think its because I have a massive bias for exploiting stylized trees as stuff Sonic can run on.

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Cascade Grove Zone - roaming hills, checker-block forest/valley partially adrift in the sky

This post has been edited by Tiller: 03 October 2014 - 04:40 AM

[Azukara]

Tiller, on 03 October 2014 - 04:38 AM, said:

When people say more open Sonic I never took it as open OPEN world. It just means you aren't pushed through a tube with the occasional jump to automate you somewhere else. An entirely open world Sonic game would seriously pose problems to the basic structuring of Sonic's formula. The Green Hill open world experiment in GDK illustrates the problems perfectly with lack of direction and freedom to bypass anything that resembles a challenge in the level design.What I would assume in an enhanced Adventure sort of design is that Sonic always needs to be pointed to go someplace "B" but given multiple options to get there from someplace "A" and not the will of the dreaded dash pad.

The 'Green Hill Paradise' stage was exactly what I was thinking about just then. Yeah, open world and Sonic don't mix well. Actually, I do have an idea on how it could work though, but it would literally require the workload of a professional team that's getting paid full-time for it, like Sonic Team. lol It's just too much to worry about.

And yeah, you're right on point. The level design style of Adventure with more routes to take, and not as nearly under the influence of the dashpad. (I still think the dashpads were rampant in SA1 due to the engine being too buggy to handle certain areas without them, sort of like a design crutch.. and then they somehow became a design decision. At least that's what it feels like.)

Quote

silva rymes, on 02 October 2014 - 05:49 PM, said:

With that in mind, I wanted to have it transition from a little coastal starting area into a beautiful, open field/meadow-type area which becomes thicker as it enters a more forest-like area. As we make our way through the bustling forest, we encounter rushing waters that propel us forward into new dangers as well as into the second Act. At this point, we continue with the forest trope until we begin to make our way down waterfalls and up cliff areas, eventually ending up high into the clouds for a bit, before making our way back down back into the forest. After this last bit of forest we end up back into an open field, though having a more ominous feel than before. At this point we come rolling into an area that alludes to what may be waiting for us in the Boss battle ahead. As with all Bosses, we want them to heavily reflect major plot elements that will reveal themselves as progress through the stages are made by the player. At this time, we have the main idea of each Boss's theme with a few of their physical concepts fleshed out as much as their stages, but are saving them for after each stage is created as we can definitely have more freedom with them at that point.

From the sounds of the original trope description and concept art it felt more like big parts of valley/forest/plains were suspended in the sky. I imagined something completely different, where massive trees and branches are interwoven in massive chunks of land forming plains and hills held slightly aloft over a valley backdrop. I think its because I have a massive bias for exploiting stylized trees as stuff Sonic can run on. />

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Cascade Grove Zone - roaming hills, checker-block forest/valley partially adrift in the sky

Silva's got the idea of the stage down pat, but at the same time there are a lot of parts in the artwork of the stage that show clouds surrounding it. Those clouds are mostly meant to be those sort of low-hanging clouds that surround most of the cliff areas, and go below some areas that are slightly floating. They're there usually for purely aesthetic reasons, but in some areas they're meant for bouncing on to get back up to the stage, since this is the first Zone and all.

The "partially adrift in the sky" description isn't completely off, but it's less important than it used to be, at least. Still a part of the level anyways.

[Dude]

Azukara, on 03 October 2014 - 08:25 AM, said:

And yeah, you're right on point. The level design style of Adventure with more routes to take, and not as nearly under the influence of the dashpad. (I still think the dashpads were rampant in SA1 due to the engine being too buggy to handle certain areas without them, sort of like a design crutch.. and then they somehow became a design decision. At least that's what it feels like.)

I actually believe this has more to do with controlling the pacing of the level. Remember that Sonic games need to feel quick and speedy, and the best way to inject a boost into your experience is to have the camera move or flex it's FOV. The problem with this though is that, the more the camera is moving, the less the player will be able to control their player as the controls are directly tied to the angle of the camera. You can use the dash panels to guide the player through a section where the camera moves dynamically, since they have a control lockout and let you set the player's angle directly. You also don't want these motions to take forever since that would also negate the purpose of the camera motion, so you use the panel's acceleration to push the player through the segment quickly.

This design does fundamentally come with a loss of player's feeling of agency, since they will quickly recognize that control is being taken from them (if the transition is too long). There are ways to tweak the design around this, but they all come with their own problems.