[Sik]

Actually, stupid question, but wasn't the actual implementation of Super Sonic in the code done practically at last minute during development? If this is the case then it's possible they rushed some random number sequence that looked fine and it has absolutely no meaning at all...

[TheInvisibleSun]

Sik, on 05 May 2012 - 11:32 AM, said:

Actually, stupid question, but wasn't the actual implementation of Super Sonic in the code done practically at last minute during development? If this is the case then it's possible they rushed some random number sequence that looked fine and it has absolutely no meaning at all...

Ah, Occam's Razor. It's always fun to speculate though. The only issue though, is that every other code had some sort of meaning, so that just makes this one difficult to discard as such.

This post has been edited by TheInvisibleSun: 05 May 2012 - 11:57 AM

[steveswede]

Sik, on 05 May 2012 - 11:32 AM, said:

Actually, stupid question, but wasn't the actual implementation of Super Sonic in the code done practically at last minute during development? If this is the case then it's possible they rushed some random number sequence that looked fine and it has absolutely no meaning at all...

Maybe but how rushed were they considering the amount of sprites made for super Sonic. Technically the super Sonic sprite set is not complete with some of the normal sprites being used but wouldn't it have taken longer to do them than inputting a cheat code?

[Sik]

steveswede, on 05 May 2012 - 11:54 AM, said:

Maybe but how rushed were they considering the amount of sprites made for super Sonic. Technically the super Sonic sprite set is not complete with some of the normal sprites being used but wouldn't it have taken longer to do them than inputting a cheat code?

Not a good point, sprites take up lots of space in the ROM, especially uncompressed ones like Super Sonic's, and there isn't much space left in the 1MB the ROM takes up (there's even less room than for Sonic 3D, if I recall correctly). They would have done it that way regardless if it was rushed or not.

Want a better example of how it's rushed? The bug after the signpost, which is completely game breaking and extremely easy and prone to happen (just jump after the sign post with 50 rings or more). How did they not catch up that one? Also I'd think that transforming by just jumping would eventually come up to be a serious accessibility issue that would also pop up as annoying (which is why they replaced it later with a double jump).

[Iceguy]

Sik, on 05 May 2012 - 12:10 PM, said:

Want a better example of how it's rushed? The bug after the signpost, which is completely game breaking and extremely easy and prone to happen (just jump after the sign post with 50 rings or more). How did they not catch up that one? Also I'd think that transforming by just jumping would eventually come up to be a serious accessibility issue that would also pop up as annoying (which is why they replaced it later with a double jump).

I remember that Naka stated in an interview that Hidden Palace is where Sonic would've gone after collecting the seven Emeralds. One Retro member pointed out that the Hidden Palace music resembles Sonic 1's Special stage's (I forgot who, when and where).
In short, Hidden Palace is part of the whole Super Sonic deal.
Sonic Team wasn't working on it for long - presumably because they wanted to implement the "main" stuff (and still had to cut out a bunch of it), and after the last-minute inclusion of Super Sonic it was obvious that they can't make the zone in time. That'd explain why the cut of Hidden Palace is a last-minute, rushed decision too - just like Super Sonic's inclusion.

As embarrassing as it is, I forgot my point I wanted to make with this. =w=; Still, I know I wanted to remind you guys about the connection between Super Sonic and Hidden Palace. Now that I think about it, it could have something to do with the Hidden Palace. Sounds kinda farfetched, but... not impossible, right?

This post has been edited by Iceguy: 05 May 2012 - 12:23 PM

[steveswede]

Sik, on 05 May 2012 - 12:10 PM, said:

steveswede, on 05 May 2012 - 11:54 AM, said:

Maybe but how rushed were they considering the amount of sprites made for super Sonic. Technically the super Sonic sprite set is not complete with some of the normal sprites being used but wouldn't it have taken longer to do them than inputting a cheat code?

Not a good point, sprites take up lots of space in the ROM, especially uncompressed ones like Super Sonic's, and there isn't much space left in the 1MB the ROM takes up (there's even less room than for Sonic 3D, if I recall correctly). They would have done it that way regardless if it was rushed or not.

I was referring to the idea rather than space in the ROM. The idea of super Sonic and the time to create the sprites gave the developers time to have a code relate to something. The only thing that would go against that would be that the developers had the idea of making the cheat codes relate to something and so changed some at the last minute. I also speculate that a code was already planned like the level select and the debug in Sonic 1 so the idea to have a code ready for super Sonic is a solid assumption.

[Jayextee]

4+1+2+6=13

THIRTEEN. Those heathen barbarians at Sega obviously summoned a foul yellow evil from the dark side to ruin the game.

[Endri]

Iceguy, on 05 May 2012 - 12:20 PM, said:

I remember that Naka stated in an interview that Hidden Palace is where Sonic would've gone after collecting the seven Emeralds. One Retro member pointed out that the Hidden Palace music resembles Sonic 1's Special stage's (I forgot who, when and where).
In short, Hidden Palace is part of the whole Super Sonic deal.

It was Mercury who pointed out that the Hidden Palace music resembled Sonic 1's Special Stage music! He also had a theory that, due to the length of the Hidden Palace music and it's chord progression, the song could have possibly been a dingle at first—possibly used for an planned cutscene—which was inadvertently turned into a looped stage music, and was probably not meant for Hidden Palace Zone.

When the Masato Nakamura's Sonic 1 & 2 Soundtrack Demo Tapes were released, it turns out that Mercury's theory was indeed the case; the "Hidden Palace music" was originally a dingle, with an intro and outro.

Iceguy, on 05 May 2012 - 12:20 PM, said:

Sonic Team wasn't working on it for long - presumably because they wanted to implement the "main" stuff (and still had to cut out a bunch of it), and after the last-minute inclusion of Super Sonic it was obvious that they can't make the zone in time. That'd explain why the cut of Hidden Palace is a last-minute, rushed decision too - just like Super Sonic's inclusion.

Oh, get ready: Hidden Palace Zone was the first Sonic 2 level to be worked on by the team. The very first mockups of Sonic 2 showed Sonic in Hidden Palace Zone, and this was said in innumerably interviews. The level was featured even in the earliest available prototype (the Nick Arcade prototype) and was kept in the game during almost the entirety of the game's development cycle.

Despite being one of the first levels to be worked on, development stopped early. It was supposed to be a regular, underground, prehistoric level—probably to cope with their early idea of time travel—with 2 acts. Only part of the first act was ready. Last minute when they decided to include Super Sonic, they changed Hidden Palace to be a single act zone to be played only after getting the 7 Chaos Emeralds, where Sonic would be granted his Super Sonic powers and presumably during which time the Hidden Palace dingle would be played.

Since the act wasn't even ready yet—and presumably there was still a cutscene to create, etc—it was cut as a very last minute decision. Even it's cut from the game was rushed!

[Ravenfreak]

Guys I just thought of something. Originally, there were supposed to be 13 zones right? (Excluding the Special Stage.) Because we got betas with a playable Hidden Palace and Wood Zone. (The other scrapped levels were never really implemented.) Now the original idea was to obtain the power of Super Sonic in Hidden Palace zone, which could have been the 13th level. Add the numbers together and you get 13. But due to time constraints Hidden palace was never implemented (well they truly have hidden it's data inside the rom we know that. ) and with that, my theory is that they ran out of time to change the cheat. Just my take on the meaning.

[Aerosol]

That's the first theory besides the bible passage theories that I can agree is plausible.

[saxman]

Ravenfreak, on 05 May 2012 - 11:13 PM, said:

Guys I just thought of something. Originally, there were supposed to be 13 zones right? (Excluding the Special Stage.) Because we got betas with a playable Hidden Palace and Wood Zone. (The other scrapped levels were never really implemented.) Now the original idea was to obtain the power of Super Sonic in Hidden Palace zone, which could have been the 13th level. Add the numbers together and you get 13. But due to time constraints Hidden palace was never implemented (well they truly have hidden it's data inside the rom we know that. ) and with that, my theory is that they ran out of time to change the cheat. Just my take on the meaning.

The sound test cheats were added in the final beta of the game. In that beta, the cheats are as follows:

19 65 09 17 -- Level select

11 24 -- 14 continues

19 65 09 17 -- Debug

11 24 -- 7 emeralds

With all the extra zones already cut from the game at this point, I don't believe it is related to that.

[doc eggfan]

Zone 4 - Casino Night
Zone 1 - Emerald Hill
Zone 2 - Chemical Plant
Zone 6 - Mystic Cave

3 out of 4 are 2 player zones. Something in that maybe? Was Chemical Plant a potential 2 player zone at any point?

This post has been edited by doc eggfan: 06 May 2012 - 11:17 PM

[Iceguy]

Ravenfreak, on 05 May 2012 - 11:13 PM, said:

Guys I just thought of something. Originally, there were supposed to be 13 zones right? (Excluding the Special Stage.) Because we got betas with a playable Hidden Palace and Wood Zone. (The other scrapped levels were never really implemented.) Now the original idea was to obtain the power of Super Sonic in Hidden Palace zone, which could have been the 13th level. Add the numbers together and you get 13. But due to time constraints Hidden palace was never implemented (well they truly have hidden it's data inside the rom we know that. ) and with that, my theory is that they ran out of time to change the cheat. Just my take on the meaning.

The Simon Wai prototype had 12 levels. Also, Super Sonic wasn't quite implemented back in the beta days; as mentioned, it was a last-minute inclusion. I'm not saying it's a last-minute decision, because, as far as I know, there is some proof and stuff that the super transformation was planned from an early phase, like the Dragon Ball Z reference and all that. owo

doc eggfan, on 06 May 2012 - 11:16 PM, said:

Zone 4 - Casino Night
Zone 1 - Emerald Hill
Zone 2 - Chemical Plant
Zone 6 - Mystic Cave

3 out of 4 are 2 player zones. Something in that maybe? Was Chemical Plant a potential 2 player zone at any point?

While that is and interesting take on the topic, I must ask how are the zones or the two-player mode related to super transformation or Chaos emeralds?

...part of the plot, maybe? I mean, Casino night would be the ideal place to win a Chaos emerald in a mini-game.
For Emerald hill, I already asked this;

Iceguy, on 05 May 2012 - 10:43 AM, said:

Emerald Hill and Hill Top are related, at least when it comes to the level art.
It's also possible to gather all Emeralds in Emerald Hill... is that why they call it Emerald Hill? owo; Could that be related?

Basically, Emerald hill could be where most, if not all the Chaos Emeralds are.
Chemical plant could easily be a place where Eggman would store an Emerald and Sonic would retrieve it.
Mystic cave could work as a zone where an Emerald should be found.

To be honest, this sounds more like a cool idea for a game than a theory for cheat numbers. =w=; Besides, there's no evidence of the plot being so deeply developed, and finding Chaos emeralds in the zones themselves would ruin the point of the Special stages - then again, maybe at one point of time they felt like they won't get the Special stages done in time? Sticking the Emeralds into zones is a time-saving option, and having an Emerald-obtaining cheat code with the numbers of the zones containing the Emeralds sounds perfectly logical to me. Also, in Sonic 3, you have to find the Special stage rings.
Coincidence?

EDIT: Grammar.

EDIT: You know that sortakinda hidden starpost in Mystic cave act 2? The one behind the wall right after the yellow spring in the upper path not far from the beginning. Easily could be an Emerald hiding spot. Just came to my mind.
...I'm putting too much effort into this, aren't I?

This post has been edited by Iceguy: 07 May 2012 - 04:36 PM

[Sik]

Iceguy, on 07 May 2012 - 06:46 AM, said:

EDIT: You know that sortakinda hidden starpost in Mystic cave act 2? The one behind the wall right after the yellow spring in the upper path not far from the beginning. Easily could be an Emerald hiding spot. Just came to my mind.
...I'm putting too much effort into this, aren't I?

More like it is. The way to retrieve Chaos Emeralds is to trigger starposts with 50 rings or more and then jump into the Special Stage. I'm pretty sure they put that starpost there only to hide a Special Stage entrance, not to act as a checkpoint.

[Endri]

Iceguy, on 07 May 2012 - 06:46 AM, said:

EDIT: You know that sortakinda hidden starpost in Mystic cave act 2? The one behind the wall right after the yellow spring in the upper path not far from the beginning. Easily could be an Emerald hiding spot. Just came to my mind.
...I'm putting too much effort into this, aren't I?

To your defense, in the Sonic the Hedgehog 2 Portuguese instructions manual, it is written: "Dr. Robotnik procurou pelas Esmeraldas Caóticas na Caverna Mística," which translates to "Dr. Robotnik searched for the Chaos Emeralds in Mystic Cave." Today, I don't even know why this fragment of information was written in the first place, since the manuals in other regions did not mention anything like this (I don't remember what the Japanese manual has written about this subject). But back then—pre Sonic-scene—with the mysteries of the Sound Test music #10 and Hidden Palace Zone, I always thought that there was something going on in Mystic Cave Zone. Since then, that little piece of text got stuck in my mind. That being said, that hidden Star Post strike me as odd as well (even though Metropolis Zone Act 1 also has a hidden Star Post).

This post has been edited by Endri: 07 May 2012 - 05:13 PM