[aaronlong]

The way I see it, the problem with trying to come up with a new type of special stage is that the originals were all basically attempts at faking 3D visuals and gameplay back before the technology really existed to do true 3D. Now that the main gameplay is 3D (generally speaking), the special stages wouldn't be so special.

And considering how inventive the current generation of indie games are, it'd be hard to compete in coming up with a new mechanic for the special stages. A lot of potential mini-game concepts have already been done as indie stand-alone downloadable games. I'd much rather they focus on continuing to refine and expand on the current 3D gameplay and level design rather than worrying about the special stages anyway.

[Greg the Cat]

aaronlong, on 06 May 2012 - 08:28 PM, said:

I'd much rather they focus on continuing to refine and expand on the current 3D gameplay and level design rather than worrying about the special stages anyway.

They could always take the Sonic Chaos special stage concept of being the same basic gameplay but having a time limit in order to get to the Emerald, but with the difficulty of the Tricky Treasure levels in Rayman Origins.

I'd be all over it. It would force them to refine their gameplay and sense for level design while bringing back the necessity to actually collect the Emeralds instead of being handed them one by one by simply fighting a boss.

This post has been edited by Greg the Cat: 06 May 2012 - 11:02 PM

[Volpino]

They could just stop with the special stage bullshit alltogether.

Sorry, but I hated Sonic 1's special stages, and Sonic 2's weren't much better considering how abruptly you had to slam on the breaks to not miss the starpost. Sonic 3's were the only ones I even mildly liked and that was because you had to actually look for them instead of your chance of entering one being based on some bogus statistic about how many rings you had at a checkpoint or at the end of a stage. Don't even get me started on Sonic CD.

Sonic Advance's idea was similar to Sonic 3's, but I always felt the stages were broken because I could never figure out where the collision box of my character was and seemed to miss rings I was sure I grabbed. SA3's, as much as I love collectibles, was just painful. Having to find ten chao was far too much, maybe having to find 3 or 5 would have been more acceptable, and the stages still felt glitched in some way. I never got far enough in Advance 2 to know how its stages played. Sonic Heroes' stages just sucked, end of story. Having to keep a key and NOT GET HIT was a pain in the ass.

Another really annoying thing about stages is that in Sonic Advance, you had to replay a level if you failed, which turned into a huge grind for me. This was also annoying in S3K, but the game pretty much threw rings at me so by Carnival Night I was super anyway.

Just throw an emerald in a secret place in a well-designed level and be done with it like Sonic R or Tails Adventures or the original Sonic on SMS. I saw nothing wrong with that and I see no reason to contrive some painfully obvious 80s-style arcade game to hide a collectible item in. It seems like a cheap way to give a game variety instead of coming up with more interesting and less tedious ways of doing it.

[Sparks]

You would like Sonic 2 Game Gear as well then. The Emeralds in it were even more difficult to find than Sonic 1 GG.


I prefer a special stage, but I think basing it off of a modern "App" game might actually be a good idea. The Sonic 1 Special Stages were based off an obscure marble game. A Classic Sonic game isn't complete without the surreal Special Stage dimensions that the Chaos Emeralds lie in.

This post has been edited by Sparks: 06 May 2012 - 09:59 PM

[LordOfSquad]

Honestly, I saw someone playing Temple Run the other day and my first thought was "Sonic". Something like that might be cool for a special stage.

[Volpino]

Sparks, on 06 May 2012 - 09:59 PM, said:

A Classic Sonic game isn't complete without the surreal Special Stage dimensions that the Chaos Emeralds lie in.

That's if you're talking about a classic Sonic game, I wasn't.

I hate the idea that everything to do with the property has to be classic for people to like it, the mass amounts of fangames that are trying to be a Sonic 2/3 homage just irritate me, it's like nobody wants to do something else. (I don't think those fangames are bad, some of them are very nice-looking, but they're mostly the same.)

[SteelBrush]

Not including special stages or bonus stages in SA1 was a really stupid decision. The series lost one of it's defining features and for what? Realism that didn't fit the franchise, eventually dragging it to it's lowest point. I love the special stages of the classic games, they offered variety of gameplay and an extra challenge.

[TheInvisibleSun]

SteelBrush, on 07 May 2012 - 12:05 AM, said:

Not including special stages or bonus stages in SA1 was a really stupid decision. The series lost one of it's defining features and for what? Realism that didn't fit the franchise, eventually dragging it to it's lowest point. I love the special stages of the classic games, they offered variety of gameplay and an extra challenge.

Yes. Special stages also offered the chance for the developer to really stretch their imaginations, go wild, and create something really out there that wasn't bound by much reality at all; the fact that they always pushed the technology (which is a reason I love Rush's Special Stages), or at least offered something completely different, made them increasingly unique. This is something SA1 really needed to counterbalance its realistic environment. Just imagine going from an adventure stage and jumping to a Colors gameworld-esque Special Stage, or even one that play's like X-treme. Personally, I think it would be a randomly awesome change of pace, even if strange.

This post has been edited by TheInvisibleSun: 07 May 2012 - 12:34 AM

[Sparks]

Volpino, on 06 May 2012 - 11:58 PM, said:

Sparks, on 06 May 2012 - 09:59 PM, said:

A Classic Sonic game isn't complete without the surreal Special Stage dimensions that the Chaos Emeralds lie in.

That's if you're talking about a classic Sonic game, I wasn't.

That's nice, that part of my post wasn't referring to yours.

[Volpino]

Sparks, on 07 May 2012 - 01:15 AM, said:

Volpino, on 06 May 2012 - 11:58 PM, said:

Sparks, on 06 May 2012 - 09:59 PM, said:

A Classic Sonic game isn't complete without the surreal Special Stage dimensions that the Chaos Emeralds lie in.

That's if you're talking about a classic Sonic game, I wasn't.

That's nice, that part of my post wasn't referring to yours.

Sorry, you quoted mine so I thought it was.

Still, why does everything have to be classic? Why can't Sonic take some ideas from modern games instead of taking them from 80s arcade games all the time? I think that's really bogging it down.

I wouldn't mind special stages if they weren't all about "OMG LOL RUSH TO THE EXIT WITH THIS MANY RINGS" or "DON'T FALL IN THE WRONG PLACE OR YOU FAIL" Why do they have to be such a pain in the ass? If they're going to vary on gameplay, can't they find some other way to introduce surrealism into the games? Mario 64 had secret areas where you had to find five silver stars to get one power star, something a little more exploration-based with the same risk involved that everywhere else in the game had would be nice.

[Metal Man88]

Every fan is a game designer, but none of them are actually interested in making something that would sell. Gee, I wonder why most of the ideas suggested here never show up in actual commercial Sonic games.

[Zephyr]

I wouldn't mind seeing the 3D fast-fast-fast modern Sonic gameplay taken out of the main gameplay and turned into special stages, and having the classic 2D gameplay to take the forefront. The modern gameplay is basically a shitload of seamlessly linked QTE's anyway (homing attack chains, light dashing, quick step sections, drifting sections, etc).

This post has been edited by Zephyr: 07 May 2012 - 10:04 AM

[Guess Who]

Zephyr, on 07 May 2012 - 10:02 AM, said:

The modern gameplay is basically a shitload of seamlessly linked QTE's anyway (homing attack chains, light dashing, quick step sections, drifting sections, etc).

Do you have any idea what a QTE is? None of those things are QTEs, unless you count pressing buttons as being a QTE, in which case every video game ever made is a series of QTEs.

[David The Lurker]

Right. Like so many other people here have said, Sega hasn't really been one to play the nostalgia card, or least play it well. In fact, I would argue that they haven't played it enough over the years, especially once we went past the Genesis era. The first time we really saw them call back to anything specifically was in Sky Sanctuary back in Sonic & Knuckles, when we saw Mecha Sonic use the Green Hill Zone and Metropolis Zone bosses again. Those were fun nods to the previous games in the series, and weren't the final fight. Yes, you could say Mecha Sonic's fight was essentially the same as his previous appearance in the Death Egg Zone in Sonic 2, but the whole way it was presented made it a fun detour that hyped you up for what was to come. He once again was the prelude to the Death Egg, only this time you got a full level out of it. That was nostalgia done right...except you can't really say it was nostalgia since the series was only three years old at that point.

If a modern game were to pull something similar to what we got out of Sky Sanctuary, I don't think people would be complaining. Sonic Colors also got it kinda right, reusing some classic enemies we hadn't seen in ages. Sonic 4, on the other hand, did it in the worst way possible. And I think that ruined the idea of Sega ever playing the nostalgia card. It wasn't a throwback that made you go "oh yeah, I remember that bit in that one game." It was more "oh I remember playing this before but it being way better." Generations had an excuse for being all sorts of nostalgia since that was the whole point of the game, but they still could have done a better job and cramming in even more. That was the perfect excuse to go super crazy, but instead they were simply moderately crazy. One of those missed opportunities that they can't really attempt again for years, or else it will seem like another rehash.

I think the Mario series has always been good at playing the nostalgia card. Reusing the classic Mario theme in certain places, having reoccurring enemies appear when you lest expect them, and of course the welcomed addition of Throwback Galaxy in Super Mario Galaxy 2. Nods and homages that never really feel like they are overpowering the experience. Sonic needs more of that, and not in the hamfisted way of Sonic 4 Episode 1. Episode 2 seems to be better at the concept, but it could certainly be refined.

Guess Who, on 07 May 2012 - 10:20 AM, said:

Zephyr, on 07 May 2012 - 10:02 AM, said:

The modern gameplay is basically a shitload of seamlessly linked QTE's anyway (homing attack chains, light dashing, quick step sections, drifting sections, etc).

Do you have any idea what a QTE is? None of those things are QTEs, unless you count pressing buttons as being a QTE, in which case every video game ever made is a series of QTEs.

Did you know I'm a QTE. You can push my buttons all night long

Volpino, on 06 May 2012 - 05:59 PM, said:

Thousand Pancake, on 29 April 2012 - 11:40 PM, said:

I'd much rather they figure out how to work playable Tails and Knuckles into a modern 3D Sonic game instead. I'm more interested in 3D Sonic games being taken to their full potential than a regression to 2D.

Same, I've always liked 3D platformers far more then 2D ones, in fact, the only 2D platformers I like are metroidvania style like Tomba (Or the other games that give the genre its namesake :V) 2D "arcade" platformers bore the FUCK out of me, and even though I like Sonic 3, I've never liked it as much as Spyro, a 3D game, or Rayman, a 2D game with a focus on exploring.

Volpino, on 07 May 2012 - 02:39 AM, said:

Still, why does everything have to be classic? Why can't Sonic take some ideas from modern games instead of taking them from 80s arcade games all the time? I think that's really bogging it down.

I wouldn't mind special stages if they weren't all about "OMG LOL RUSH TO THE EXIT WITH THIS MANY RINGS" or "DON'T FALL IN THE WRONG PLACE OR YOU FAIL" Why do they have to be such a pain in the ass? If they're going to vary on gameplay, can't they find some other way to introduce surrealism into the games? Mario 64 had secret areas where you had to find five silver stars to get one power star, something a little more exploration-based with the same risk involved that everywhere else in the game had would be nice.

I...right, we have to tackle all of this at once. I know you have mentioned your aversion to arcade-style gameplay in the past (such as in that time topic that I will not get into), but...turning the special stage into "collect five things to get one thing" doesn't seem that interesting to me at all. Having the special stages simply be a Sonic level with a slightly different goal doesn't make it special. What made the special stages interesting is that they played by completely different rules than the standard game. In Sonic 1, we had to navigate a constantly rotating maze where Sonic had to search to find the Chaos Emerald. In fact, I'm surprised you hate this one so much, since it deals with what you praise so much - exploration. I know there is the whole "go the wrong way and you get kicked out" aspect, but it's all about trial and error. You can go back to them later on. You can practice, you can learn the nuances of each map until you finally get to the point where you know all their secrets and get to the emerald with ease. If you beat the game without all the emeralds, you can play it again. The games were meant to be played more than once, you know.

I would love for a modern special stage to exist. I would also love if it wasn't a throwback to a previously done special stage. Really, that should be the land of the gimick. They can go absolutely crazy in designing these surreal worlds that are even far removed from what other places Sonic is going through in the main game. It doesn't have to be "get 50 rings!" or "get all the blue spheres!" Which...hold on, those are goals that are basically collect-a-thons, just done at high speeds. Why do I have this strange feeling that you would love the Sonic 2 special stages if you could walk through them, and also turn around if you missed a ring?

Still, the special stage is one of the building blocks to the whole Sonic experience. It is meant to give off some sort of mini-game feeling because it isn't part of the main game. You have to beat them to get the "good ending," but if all you're interested in is the rest of the game, then you can just ignore them. It's not the like the bad ending of any Sonic game makes you feel bad, or shows Sonic actively losing...well, ok, the bad ending of Chaotix can be nightmare fuel. But other then that, you really just get an annoyed Sonic and then a taunting Eggman after the credits. The special stages provide variety in a formula that has existed for decades. Even the Super Mario Bros series have had mini side-quests or matching games or what have you to break up the gameplay. You can pick it up and recognize as part of the whole package, but it gives your mind something else to do.

So yeah, I do agree with you that they need to try new things with the Special Stage. I just don't think they should necessarily look towards "modern gaming" to do it. Shadow the Hedgehog looked toward modern gaming. We all saw what happened there.

As for your love of 3D gaming...well...Sonic never has been a collect-a-thon type game. It isn't a Rare game. You collect rings, but you don't need to get them all. You collect Emeralds, but that is in a separate world entirely. I was always annoyed by how you got the Chaos Emeralds in Sonic 1 and 2 for the Game Gear because it made me feel like the emeralds weren't anything special. They were just lying on the ground for anyone to get. In their Genesis counterparts, the emeralds were sealed off in another dimension something you couldn't easily just stroll into. You had to work to get at them. The lack of special stages in Adventure didn't bother me that much because of how the story ended up using them, but after that point...yeah. It just didn't work for me anymore.

Greg the Cat, on 25 April 2012 - 08:16 PM, said:

Dammit, Aerosol. You just had to remind me of the major plot holes regarding Knuckles' absence in Unleashed when, should the Emeralds just simply be sucked dry, there should be a disturbance in his Master Emerald force didn't you? Which also goes to say that Angel Island should have been a level in major part of the game in place of Adabat and City Zone #39. But I guess that we wanted a bland tropical level and yet another city and cared more for the meaningful Pickle eater and an ancient little shit.

That is, if anyone who likes the Unleashed Daytime (I.e. not me) formula cared! But it's just one of those points where the guys at Sega H.Q. forget their own continuity.

oh um. Ok right. I know this really doesn't have anything to do with the topic, but...Knuckles' absence is Unleashed isn't really a plothole at all. It could have been done super easily, of course. Knuckles showing up because the Master Emerald shouted at him makes sense, too. But it has never been established that the Master Emerald would go out of its way to shout at Knuckles that the Chaos Emeralds are being fucked with. It never said anything to him before the events of Sonic the Hedgehog 3, when there were actually two sets of emeralds and Knuckles was guarding one set of them. The Master Emerald didn't go "hey bub, maybe you should find the other seven so they can merge together and be whole again because they aren't yet lol." The only other time we've seen the emeralds really messed with was at the end of Sonic Adventure, and Knuckles wasn't around the Master Emerald to see if it would have shouted at him. So really, it's just Sega not taking advantage of Knuckles, not them creating a plothole that ignores established continuity.

Even if Knuckles was there, do you really think they wouldn't have included the levels you hated on anyway.

[TheInvisibleSun]

Volpino, on 07 May 2012 - 02:39 AM, said:

Sparks, on 07 May 2012 - 01:15 AM, said:

Volpino, on 06 May 2012 - 11:58 PM, said:

Sparks, on 06 May 2012 - 09:59 PM, said:

A Classic Sonic game isn't complete without the surreal Special Stage dimensions that the Chaos Emeralds lie in.

That's if you're talking about a classic Sonic game, I wasn't.

That's nice, that part of my post wasn't referring to yours.

Sorry, you quoted mine so I thought it was.

Still, why does everything have to be classic? Why can't Sonic take some ideas from modern games instead of taking them from 80s arcade games all the time? I think that's really bogging it down.

I wouldn't mind special stages if they weren't all about "OMG LOL RUSH TO THE EXIT WITH THIS MANY RINGS" or "DON'T FALL IN THE WRONG PLACE OR YOU FAIL" Why do they have to be such a pain in the ass? If they're going to vary on gameplay, can't they find some other way to introduce surrealism into the games? Mario 64 had secret areas where you had to find five silver stars to get one power star, something a little more exploration-based with the same risk involved that everywhere else in the game had would be nice.

Because they are optional; They aren't required to complete the game. They are made to be challenges, that need some kind of capacity of skill to complete, so that its completion is much more rewarding than just unlocking whatever bonus it does. Since it isn't required for game completion (and unlocks great bonuses), the developers gloves can come off, and they can make it as difficult as they darn well please so that you actually have to work for the reward. Personally, I would like my Special Stages to pose some sort of challenge; I usually don't prefer a time limit, but fake exits/traps like red spheres and GOAL Blocks, do just fine for me (as well as things like an increase in speed that artificially create more difficulty but technically don't kill you). Heck, I wouldn't mind having Sonic Jump styled special stages for games like the Sonic Advances.