Anyone else tired of Sega playing the nostalgia card?
Posted 07 May 2012 - 12:29 PM
Posted 08 May 2012 - 04:35 PM
Same, I've always liked 3D platformers far more then 2D ones, in fact, the only 2D platformers I like are metroidvania style like Tomba (Or the other games that give the genre its namesake :V) 2D "arcade" platformers bore the FUCK out of me, and even though I like Sonic 3, I've never liked it as much as Spyro, a 3D game, or Rayman, a 2D game with a focus on exploring.
Still, why does everything have to be classic? Why can't Sonic take some ideas from modern games instead of taking them from 80s arcade games all the time? I think that's really bogging it down.
I wouldn't mind special stages if they weren't all about "OMG LOL RUSH TO THE EXIT WITH THIS MANY RINGS" or "DON'T FALL IN THE WRONG PLACE OR YOU FAIL" Why do they have to be such a pain in the ass? If they're going to vary on gameplay, can't they find some other way to introduce surrealism into the games? Mario 64 had secret areas where you had to find five silver stars to get one power star, something a little more exploration-based with the same risk involved that everywhere else in the game had would be nice.
I...right, we have to tackle all of this at once. I know you have mentioned your aversion to arcade-style gameplay in the past (such as in that time topic that I will not get into), but...turning the special stage into "collect five things to get one thing" doesn't seem that interesting to me at all. Having the special stages simply be a Sonic level with a slightly different goal doesn't make it special. What made the special stages interesting is that they played by completely different rules than the standard game. In Sonic 1, we had to navigate a constantly rotating maze where Sonic had to search to find the Chaos Emerald. In fact, I'm surprised you hate this one so much, since it deals with what you praise so much - exploration. I know there is the whole "go the wrong way and you get kicked out" aspect, but it's all about trial and error. You can go back to them later on. You can practice, you can learn the nuances of each map until you finally get to the point where you know all their secrets and get to the emerald with ease. If you beat the game without all the emeralds, you can play it again. The games were meant to be played more than once, you know.
I would love for a modern special stage to exist. I would also love if it wasn't a throwback to a previously done special stage. Really, that should be the land of the gimick. They can go absolutely crazy in designing these surreal worlds that are even far removed from what other places Sonic is going through in the main game. It doesn't have to be "get 50 rings!" or "get all the blue spheres!" Which...hold on, those are goals that are basically collect-a-thons, just done at high speeds. Why do I have this strange feeling that you would love the Sonic 2 special stages if you could walk through them, and also turn around if you missed a ring?
Because I would. I like exploration on MY terms, and that means going everywhere in a level. A game that prevents me from or punishes me for exploring everything like classic Sonic games does frustrates me. That's not fun, that's just developers being lazy. You can throw out a bunch of "OH WELL YOU JUST DON'T LIKE CHALLENGE LOLOLOL" insults and they won't mean a damn thing to me considering Spyro and Tomba were focused on exploring everything and those games were not easy.
You people hate backtracking and I hate playing fucking Green Hill over. I think a level should be fully explored the first time to find everything in it as opposed to playing it over again because some asshole developer thought it would increase replay value. I put down Sonic 1 halfway through the game because of how dated and archaic it is. I only beat Sonic 2 because of the co-op, I think they're repeatedly making themselves not fun for me because of all the arcade bullshit they had to throw in there.
So yeah, I do agree with you that they need to try new things with the Special Stage. I just don't think they should necessarily look towards "modern gaming" to do it. Shadow the Hedgehog looked toward modern gaming. We all saw what happened there.
Mario's minigames have never aggravated me beyond livid. I have never done physical damage to a TV over Mario games. Nintendo does something SEGA has never gotten through their thick skull and that's make a game fun and accessible without being a blowjob for so-called "hardcore" gamers and a nightmare for anyone just looking for an escapist diversion.
Using Shadow as an example is only acknowledging one type of modern game. By "modern" I mean for them to throw away this arcade bullshit that is bogging down the series. Mario wasn't always the way it was in 64 so why can't Sonic be more about collecting? It'd make the levels more interesting and the gameplay more of a controlled pace. I'd like it much more if the series would take the good points of modern games. Modern games give players choices on how to play; Sonic can do that by giving different character options and not FORCING speed on you, not everyone who got into the franchise wants to play a racing game thinly veiled as a platformer. Sonic Adventure is not my idea of a good example for the emeralds, I don't want them to just pop up in a story, I don't want Super Sonic to be an endboss thing, I want to find them but I want to do it without the insane trial and error of the classic games. I got thoroughly annoyed every time I died in Mario 64 and was thrown out of the level. That made the game tedious to play, imagine how tedious I think classic Sonic is by comparison, I want to play a game one time, and be able to go back for anything I miss, and stay in a level for an extended time to collect everything instead of having to replay the entire fucking game for that.
I'm a completionist, not getting an item in a game drives me insane (And is also why I stopped playing mainstream Pokemon games) so "not getting everything" is ludicrous.
If you want a summary, one thing that I think is ESSENTIAL AND REQUIRED of modern games are choices. Choices in playstyle and choices without obscene consequences. An RPG like Skyrim gives you the option of how to build your character. You can't master every skill but the game doesn't block off entire sections of itself if you can't pick locks, Skyrim is a prime example of choices, because instead of being a douche like classic Sonic, it doesn't shut its doors to "less skilled" or more importantly, "less interested" players and instead gives them an alternative that they can choose.
In the case of a platformer, you can either complete a level in one go on Spyro or come back to it later, it doesn't just become unavailable to you at a certain point, the latter should just be viewed as a design flaw instead of a feature because it does nothing for the player besides frustrate them and force them to restart their game.
The idea that a video game should be "Do this or you don't get this" is a dead concept to me, the modern translation is "There are several ways you can accomplish the same thing" and that's how it should be, with a few exceptions such as boss fights.
Posted 08 May 2012 - 06:47 PM
But on the subject of special stages, I positively loved how they were shown in Sonic 1. That surreal background, that gentle lullaby sounding music, it makes it sound like you're in some other dream realm. I also quite liked how they displayed in Sonic 3, since it again makes it feel like you're on some surreal 3D planet with different dimensions compared to Sonic's world. Now if they could somehow combine that with the modern Sonic setting, it'd be a surefire winner for me. Perhaps have a blue sphere collecting on a much larger planet/planets with obstacles, and using boost to propell yourself to other planets sorta like Mario galaxy, that sorta thing.
But other than that I am sorta sick of seeing the Sonic 2 special stages done over and over in each game, there's only so much half pipe one hedgehog can take
Posted 08 May 2012 - 08:13 PM
Posted 08 May 2012 - 08:30 PM
Fair enough, but I enjoyed Sonic Adventure, especially the chao, as they were, and for what they could have been, but never were, because apparently Sonic is never supposed to be too different from what the Genesis games were even though that's exactly what happened to Mario.
Mario 64 plays differently from Mario 3, Mario wasn't about exploring in Mario 3, but it was in Mario 64 and Sunshine, so I don't see why the 3D Sonic games can't be more like Rare games. All SEGA does lately is one thing.
It probably doesn't help that Nintendo also owns 3 other franchises that do different things whereas SEGA owns one people still give a shit about that relies on nostalgia.
Posted 08 May 2012 - 08:38 PM
Sega needs to bring other characters back that can explore. If they don't want Sonic to, Knuckles can. As long as the levels are open enough for nonessential exploration (Extra stuff you can find, not essential), I don't see the problem. Sega has been trying to throw in collectable shit lately with the red rings.