Ravenfreak, on 29 March 2012 - 11:53 PM, said:
Just a heads up on the people who want to explore Sonic 3K with no time limit, I hacked S3k. You can get it here
Awesome, I will check this out later. :D
Molotok, on 29 March 2012 - 11:57 PM, said:
I'd be fine with a difficulty setting. I'm just sort of a person who does want a little challenge and the post was more me reminiscing than anything else, along with a little observation about gaming trends.
I understand there's a shitton of handholding in newer games - Skyward Sword comes to mind with all the talking Fi did and how pointless the dowsing gimmick was - but I can't think of new games' handholding without thinking of OoT3D, a game which I not only enjoy, but which has THE most pointless, cheap kind of handholding ever - a freaking stone that tells you how to solve a puzzle. I disdain that stone, I never use it, but at the same time, I was only required to notice it one time, it is not obtrusive, and I never have to use it, so I do not mind it being in the game even though I'm amazed it even had to be.
However, after even considering the insult that stone posed to me, I remembered that I have quite a few friends that have confided in me that puzzle games "Make them feel stupid" and they are just not very good at them, so if someone really needs the stone to tell them the answer, more power to them. (I guess Nintendo figured they're just cutting out the middle man with walkthroughs anyway.) Now, I can completely sympathize with a lack of interest in handholding when it's literally unavoidable. A good example being the Harvest Moon games for the Wii. You cannot skip the tutorial, which is annoying enough, but what used to take one virtual day off your first Spring now needs to spread itself out over the span of a week, either because Natsume was worried about the accessibility of a game like Harvest Moon or because there is so much to do in a game like Harvest Moon, or both, I don't know, but what I do know is, I don't need it. I'm not bashing people who do, I don't want to take away the possibility that vital information they needed to know might be in those tutorials, but why the hell can't I turn them off? That really drives me insane.
Although on a different subject, I might as well say that, if I'm playing a Sonic game like what I assume most people play a Sonic game, I almost never time out, although Sonic 3 gave me a lot of trouble as a kid, it's not really that I can't play the game, it's just that sometimes, I outright don't want to leave a certain area for whatever reason, usually because, for varying reasons, it makes me feel good to be there. I realize this wasn't really all that intentional in earlier games, and in some newer ones, but it just kind of mystifies me that a lot of people have never considered this before. A lot of the thread's previous pages seem to be people who are blaming the disdain for a time limit on people just sucking, but I just have to wonder at what some of them think about when they think about video games.
I attempted to get people to elaborate, but apparently that didn't really work.
And yeah I know my posts are long. It's difficult to abridge posts for me. -.-
Mercury, on 29 March 2012 - 11:40 PM, said:
serpx, on 29 March 2012 - 10:02 PM, said:
I bet the time limit came from Mario, when they were taking ideas from it to compete against it. It probably just stuck as something to have, even though it really serves no purpose other than to be annoying.
It's almost certainly borrowed from Mario; 80% of the rest of Sonic's game mechanics are.
And that's another reason why I dislike the time limit (as it has traditionally been implemented in Sonic) - along with the score, it seems to have been thrown in with very little thought, and has never really been re
Take Yoshi's Island, for example (the first Super Mario platformer game to be released post-Sonic, and almost certainly influenced by it). There's no time limit at all; when the game wants to put the pressure on you, they have chase sequences, rising/falling blocks, auto-scrolling areas, or unstable platforms. Other levels let you explore to your heart's content with no pressure.
That's an example of legitimately good, thoughtful design. Instead of slapping on a cheap global feature with no thought to how it might affect individual areas (as in Sonic 3, where a 10:00 limit means nothing in Angel Island but can be sorely felt in Carnival Night), each challenge in the game is presented in the best possible way, just like a director presenting each scene in a film. Surely there's room in the Sonic franchise to take these cues, rather than adhering to a holdover from the arcade era.
And there's a similar story with Score in Yoshi's Island. It's rethought to be a hugely important aspect of gameplay, interwoven with exploration (finding coins, flowers) and challenge (don't get hit too much) in a brilliant and satisfying way. And it rewards you with the greatest reward a game can give: bonus levels. But in Sonic? It's just vestigial.
I'm not crusading against the time limit here. But when - from a design perspective - these gameplay concepts are questioned instead of taken for granted, you can forge interesting new territory. Now, that's interesting to me primarily as a game designer (with a specific focus on Sonic) but might bore the hell out of others.
I think it's not just the time limit and score, either. Sonic game development seems to be plagued with safe, inside-the-box thinking, especially
from Sega themselves. While Mario and Mega Man have healthy diversity, exploring all kinds of new gameplay and level environments, Sonic games seem to be stuck in a cookie cutter loop. It's almost as though the series is afraid of losing its identity if it doesn't recapitulate all of the tired tropes, and this carries over to the fan community, as well. I'm speaking largely from ignorance on this next point, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there's nearly as much of a trend towards remaking in other communities; there's no Mario 2 HD.
I'm still waiting for Sonic to grow up and become vital again, from a design perspective. But I think I've strayed way too far from the topic of the time limit.
You seem to have a lot to say on this, why not make a thread with your observations?
This post has been edited by Volpino: 30 March 2012 - 12:37 AM