[JordanFreeman]

Stealth, on 29 March 2012 - 08:54 PM, said:

HeartAttack, on 29 March 2012 - 08:25 PM, said:

It's blatantly obvious that you have absolutely no idea what the goal of this project was.

Says the guy who registered to the board that started the project as a "Community Project" at a later year than the project's birth, and who's defending the project as-is when two of the original primary goals for the project that turned into THIS were:

1.) Open-ended platform for creating other "HD" 2D fangames with Sonic 2 as a basis [Which is now tightly-packed DRM on what amounts to traced-over, flatly-smoothed upscaled Sega/Sonic Team graphic property and a haphazardly-translated version of other people's reverse-engineering and notes of other people's work]

2.)
This is the image that initially inspired the discussion that led to the "Community Project" that turned into this "Sonic2HD". Look at the grit and detail. Where is that now? The graphics being used in this project are just bland smoothing of the original low-res assets. I guess that and making them super-shiny are what count now? That's certainly not the impression I got when this whole thing first started

I hadn't exactly intended to say anything regarding all of this, but you, sir, seem to have pissed me off, randomly butting into the middle of something and starting to tell everyone "how it is" like you know. Apparently you don't. Some of us do happen to know where this came from. You may be willing to settle for less, but some people actually have fair reason to be disappointed with this. It's devolved from what it started as, and no amount of parroting what anyone may insist it is NOW is going to change that

I actually think Sonic 2 HD looks alot better than that image. I prefer the 'smoother' look myself. Of course, this is all just opinion is it not? I mean, isn't whether one likes or dislike the current form of S2HD totally irrelevant? The team will do what they want to do, hopefully taking in some minor suggestions on the way. What the project started out as and what it is now are also clearly completely different, it seems unfair to compare them.

[Stealth]

HeartAttack, on 29 March 2012 - 09:01 PM, said:

Projects transform. To expect something like the original concept inspiration when the project has clearly shifted gears starting years ago is, as stated, delusional. They gave us what they've been previewing for a long time now. Why would anyone expect anything different?

You have absolutely no intent of actually hearing what I said, do you? This project started out as something much different, and something more people were behind. It's natural that many of those people would be sorely disappointed by what the project has turned into now. And of course it's changed- that's not in dispute. What is in dispute is whether or not everyone is happy with that change, and they have its original design to compare it to. You can't sit here and say four or five years later somebody else had decided that they were going to almost completely change the project for one reason or another and in that time had done so, and that that simple fact completely erases everyone's expectations for the project from the beginning. It doesn't. Some people wanted bigger things for this, and in fact, were promised those bigger things. They have every right to be disappointed with the change

[HeartAttack]

Stealth, on 29 March 2012 - 09:06 PM, said:

HeartAttack, on 29 March 2012 - 09:01 PM, said:

Projects transform. To expect something like the original concept inspiration when the project has clearly shifted gears starting years ago is, as stated, delusional. They gave us what they've been previewing for a long time now. Why would anyone expect anything different?

You have absolutely no intent of actually hearing what I said, do you? This project started out as something much different, and something more people were behind. It's natural that many of those people would be sorely disappointed by what the project has turned into now. And of course it's changed- that's not in dispute. What is in dispute is whether or not everyone is happy with that change, and they have its original design to compare it to. You can't sit here and say four or five years later somebody else had decided that they were going to almost completely change the project for one reason or another and in that time had done so, and that that simple fact completely erases everyone's expectations for the project from the beginning. It doesn't. Some people wanted bigger things for this, and in fact, were promised those bigger things. They have every right to be disappointed with the change

I see your point - but my point hasn't changed. WHY is anyone expecting ANYTHING other than what they gave us? I mean it's only what they've been showing off nearly every step of the way for a long time now. I don't see how anyone is surprised by this, unless of course they started following the project at its beginning, got pissy and left, and then came back as soon as this release happened and got all ZOMG SURPRISED IN A BAD WAY. Some of you can try and play the seniority card all you want, but it means jack shit to someone who's been following this for just as long and who has stuck by and witnessed the changes as they happened. You aren't happy with what they've done and other people feel the same way - you have every right to and no one can change that - nor can we change the fact that this project shifted gears fairly early on in the process.

EDIT: I agree with Jordan. Everyone has their opinion. In my opinion, the project is excellent as it is - much better than what it started out as - and I was expecting nothing other than what we got.

This post has been edited by HeartAttack: 29 March 2012 - 09:14 PM

[Volpino]

Cerulean Nights, on 29 March 2012 - 07:41 PM, said:

I honestly don't find any of these criticisms offensive. We made a game that we are proud of, and nothing you guys can complain about will change that fact as much as you'd like to think you can. 99% of people agree this is the best looking Sonic game that they've ever played, and you're more than welcome to disagree. It's just a shame you aren't able to do it with a bit more tact.

No offense but that sounded really arrogant. I like what I see, I think you're impressive artists, I will now and forever try to take advice from your work, because I want to be better at vectors, and I think it's beautiful, but you don't seem like you're listening to criticism at all, and I'm disappointed because in 2009-10 I remember a lot of criticism went around in improving a lot of things. It's sad to see that go, but then again, it's sad to see the whole project close its doors as well, I guess.

Also I like his mockup, it does look modern, say what you want about shader abuse, I'd play a game designed like that.

Steven M, on 29 March 2012 - 08:46 PM, said:

HeartAttack, on 29 March 2012 - 08:35 PM, said:

Quit your crybaby whining crying bullshit. You didn't pay for or contribute to anything. If a shitty, upscaled and horribly filtered Sonic 2 is what you want - then GTFO of the thread and carry on with your emulator. I suggest - no - I challenge you to reproduce what the S2HD team has. If you can do much better - then you are free to release an OMG AMAZEBALLS MUCH BETTER THAN S2HD version of the game by yourself. Owait...that's never going to happen, because you're full of shit and complaining just to complain.

If you get served a shitty meal at a restaurant you're not allowed to complain unless you can cook better yourself. Likewise nobody is allowed to critique movies unless they've won an Oscar themselves.

I laughed so hard when I read this post. That's exactly the kind of sarcastic remarks that went through my head at some of these crybabies. I love you Steven M. :V

"BOO HOO CRITICISM" If you people said that to me after I bothered to critique art of yours on any art site, I'd block your asses. Grow the hell up. You're reminding me of those twats that draw ORIGINAL CHARACTER DO NOT STEAL fanart with bad anatomy and then claim "it's my STYLE OMG!!111" when someone points it out to them.

Edit: By "you people" I mean random community members, not the S2HD staff.

This post has been edited by Volpino: 29 March 2012 - 09:13 PM

[Stealth]

JordanFreeman, on 29 March 2012 - 09:04 PM, said:

I actually think Sonic 2 HD looks alot better than that image. I prefer the 'smoother' look myself. Of course, this is all just opinion is it not? I mean, isn't whether one likes or dislike the current form of S2HD totally irrelevant? The team will do what they want to do, hopefully taking in some minor suggestions on the way. What the project started out as and what it is now are also clearly completely different, it seems unfair to compare them.

Well, I never said that picture was the ultimate example of fantastic "HD" artwork, either. What I meant to say was that there's a clear difference in the level of additional detail and liberty taken in that detail. That was in the original design, and has been removed. Apparently some people want to argue that the project concept never included that sort of thing, regardless of the fact that it did

And of course, people are going to have their difference in taste, too, but that is the sort of discussion that was happening, and again, it seems to come down to the fact that some people can't handle it and will grab onto the most ridiculous things to basically try and oppress the opposing side. That's what's really bothering me at the moment

HeartAttack, on 29 March 2012 - 09:11 PM, said:

I see your point - but my point hasn't changed. WHY is anyone expecting ANYTHING other than what they gave us? I mean it's only what they've been showing off nearly every step of the way for a long time now. I don't see how anyone is surprised by this, unless of course they started following the project at its beginning, got pissy and left, and then came back as soon as this release happened and got all ZOMG SURPRISED IN A BAD WAY. Some of you can try and play the seniority card all you want, but it means jack shit to someone who's been following this for just as long and who has stuck by and witnessed the changes as they happened. You aren't happy with what they've done and other people feel the same way - you have every right to and no one can change that - nor can we change the fact that this project shifted gears fairly early on in the process.

Nor does this talk really change what I was responding to about your original post. Apparently you didn't want to accept people feeling differently than you and wanted to play off like anything that would give them these expectations never existed. It's possible you misrepresented yourself in the way you said it, I guess, but that's certainly how it came out

Although noone can change the fact that the changes have happened to this point, I think the people expressing distaste for those changes are trying to present a viewpoint to convince the people still working on it to do something about that NOW. That's what discussion is for. But I guess some of them are frustrated about not having been listened to for quite a while already. Though, that's not totally unfounded, either.. this was still listed as a "Community Project" until just a few days ago. I'm sure a bunch of people are coping with disappointment over that change, too

[HeartAttack]

Stealth, on 29 March 2012 - 09:12 PM, said:

JordanFreeman, on 29 March 2012 - 09:04 PM, said:

I actually think Sonic 2 HD looks alot better than that image. I prefer the 'smoother' look myself. Of course, this is all just opinion is it not? I mean, isn't whether one likes or dislike the current form of S2HD totally irrelevant? The team will do what they want to do, hopefully taking in some minor suggestions on the way. What the project started out as and what it is now are also clearly completely different, it seems unfair to compare them.

Well, I never said that picture was the ultimate example of fantastic "HD" artwork, either. What I meant to say was that there's a clear difference in the level of additional detail and liberty taken in that detail. That was in the original design, and has been removed. Apparently some people want to argue that the project concept never included that sort of thing, regardless of the fact that it did

And of course, people are going to have their difference in taste, too, but that is the sort of discussion that was happening, and again, it seems to come down to the fact that some people can't handle it and will grab onto the most ridiculous things to basically try and oppress the opposing side. That's what's really bothering me at the moment

I very clearly remember seeing that image long ago and I, too, remember it as being inspiration for this. I have it somewhere on one of my hard drives in an archive, as well. I suppose I'm done saying my piece, though. It seems some people were expecting something - something I have no idea why they'd expect - but alas - there's nothing that can be done. The project is what it is and it'll simply have some people ticked off and some people happy. I never meant that people didn't once have certain expectations, only that those expectations were (or should have been) broken LONG ago when things started to shift gears. *shrugs* I stand by everything I've said, though.

This post has been edited by HeartAttack: 29 March 2012 - 09:19 PM

[Tyty]

Regarding the art, I really just want to ask one question.

Why does the grey part of the eggmobile look like someone spent 5 minutes tracing it from the original sprite in flash?

The gradients on all the metal in this game REALLY bug me because they don't look like metal. :|

[JordanFreeman]

Stealth, on 29 March 2012 - 09:12 PM, said:

JordanFreeman, on 29 March 2012 - 09:04 PM, said:

I actually think Sonic 2 HD looks alot better than that image. I prefer the 'smoother' look myself. Of course, this is all just opinion is it not? I mean, isn't whether one likes or dislike the current form of S2HD totally irrelevant? The team will do what they want to do, hopefully taking in some minor suggestions on the way. What the project started out as and what it is now are also clearly completely different, it seems unfair to compare them.

Well, I never said that picture was the ultimate example of fantastic "HD" artwork, either. What I meant to say was that there's a clear difference in the level of additional detail and liberty taken in that detail. That was in the original design, and has been removed. Apparently some people want to argue that the project concept never included that sort of thing, regardless of the fact that it did

And of course, people are going to have their difference in taste, too, but that is the sort of discussion that was happening, and again, it seems to come down to the fact that some people can't handle it and will grab onto the most ridiculous things to basically try and oppress the opposing side. That's what's really bothering me at the moment

I totally agree with you, just thought I'd try to add.

People are allowed to dislike it all they want, or be disappointed that it isn't what was initially promised, but they shouldn't attack the creators based on the fact it isn't what they are after. I would understand that point of view if this was still a community project, but it isn't at this point. I would love for this project to be many things it will never be, and it has so much potential to be more than it is, but I recognize that vision is not the goal the team has in mind.

But yeah, your right. The project direction has DEFINITELY changed. I may have just signed up, but I was still here when the project began and can reaffirm that.

[Stealth]

HeartAttack, on 29 March 2012 - 09:17 PM, said:

[...] I stand by everything I've said, though.

As I stand by everything I said. I suppose that I should make that clear about myself as well, if you don't want to reconsider some of what you said, or even how you said it

[Falk]

Cerulean Nights, on 29 March 2012 - 07:41 PM, said:

I honestly don't find any of these criticisms offensive. We made a game that we are proud of, and nothing you guys can complain about will change that fact as much as you'd like to think you can. 99% of people agree this is the best looking Sonic game that they've ever played, and you're more than welcome to disagree. It's just a shame you aren't able to do it with a bit more tact.

Oi, that's just an exaggeration and you know it. I'm pretty sure more than a measly 1% would say Unleashed or Generations subjectively looks better, and not just from being 3D. I'm really glad I'm welcome to disagree, wouldn't know what I'd do if I wasn't.

edit: And snarkiness aside, I'm 100% aware I'm comparing a retail product with backdrop geometry processed with render farms to a hobbyist venture, and you definitely nailed the look that you specifically want to achieve. All I'm saying is that it doesn't make it any less 'bland' or 'gradienty' to the people who are inclined to think so, which I can objectively say is greater than 1%. I mean just look up the threads on gaming sites like (herp) NeoGAF for examples.

This post has been edited by Falk: 29 March 2012 - 09:28 PM

[P3DR0]

Quote

I see your point - but my point hasn't changed. WHY is anyone expecting ANYTHING other than what they gave us? I mean it's only what they've been showing off nearly every step of the way for a long time now. I don't see how anyone is surprised by this, unless of course they started following the project at its beginning and then came back as soon as this release happened and got all ZOMG SURPRISED IN A BAD WAY. Some of you can try and play the seniority card all you want, but it means jack shit to someone who's been following this for just as long and who has stuck by and witnessed the changes as they happened. You aren't happy with what they've done and other people feel the same way - you have every right to and no one can change that - nor can we change the fact that this project shifted gears fairly early on in the process.

No one is expecting anything. We're in different pages. We're discussing that the game could've been more creative and taken more serious the "reimagination" part. What we (at least I am) are complaining is that the game can be more creative, can have some changes and have a small conflict by the approach they've chosen since it lacks atmosphere.

I undestand that you're a fan of the project, but don't get blind by your love for it. Everyone in here are Sonic fans, from the very beginning and mostly are talented people since it's a community that was intended for hacking Sonic games. Most of us have at least some knowledge on design, programming, sound creation, etc... So most of us know what we're talking about and I suggest you instead of defending your beloved fangame with nails and teeth, try for once see the point on the criticism and feedback that everyone is giving.

I do like the game as well, but from my experience I know what's missing or how it could be better and this is what I'm saying. My disappointment with the game is in it's creative part, since if you go to the archive on the concept area you'll see many good ideas that has been ignored. My complain is that the graphics could be better and it lacks atmosphere. It's simple as that. No one is saying the game sucks, no one is expecting it to be better than we've seen. We're giving feedback and criticism, and that's why this is an open thread so the game can be discussed.

Quote

I actually think Sonic 2 HD looks alot better than that image. I prefer the 'smoother' look myself. Of course, this is all just opinion is it not? I mean, isn't whether one likes or dislike the current form of S2HD totally irrelevant? The team will do what they want to do, hopefully taking in some minor suggestions on the way. What the project started out as and what it is now are also clearly completely different, it seems unfair to compare them.

Actually no one is comparing, this image was posted to prove a point that the game was suposed to be something different than it is right now. No one is saying that this mockup is better than the final release.


Anyways my notes and criticism are in previous posts so my back is free of any weight, the developers can feel free to interpret it, use it, comment it or throw it away, whatever. I worked as a game developer, I've studied art for the last seven years, spend horrendous amounts of money in books and stuff, I know what I'm talking about and I'm just trying to point whoever it is in the better direction.

This post has been edited by P3DR0: 29 March 2012 - 09:34 PM

[Stealth]

P3DR0, on 29 March 2012 - 09:26 PM, said:

No one is expecting anything. We're in different pages. We're discussing that the game could've been more creative and taken more serious the "reimagination" part. What we (at least I am) are complaining is that the game can be more creative, can have some changes and have a small conflict by the approach they've chosen since it lacks atmosphere.

I'll take responsibility for clearing this one up, since I was involved in creating any confusion regarding it. This stems from me responding to someone who I perceived as trying to erase the past regarding the project's intent. There were things that created expectations, but it's not to say that personal taste for something similar couldn't have developed without prior exposure to the project. The fact that that could happen probably has a lot to do with why expectations like that might've held in the first place :P

[Tanks]

Yeah, leme make up for my lame ass post I made after a 12 hour work day...

Basically, when I see Sonic 2 HD, I want some form of nostalgia in there. Now, I know I'm wearing my nostalgia shades in saying this, but I wear them proudly. When I think Sonic 2, I think of the several times I tried to get my fucking Genesis to boot and when it did I would be greeted with Sonic posing like a bad ass.

Now I'm not saying the art is shit. I think its wonderful. Very good job with the entire title screen. Even the island is well done.

Here's the thing though. Just because Sonic looked mean to you when you drew him out is no excuse for trashing the original title screen in favor of some hybrid from Sonic 2 SMS/GG and the beta. The title screen, in my humble opinion, is pretty much the embodiment of all things that could possibly be nostalgic about this game. Its the first thing you see and BAM there he is. Fucking badass Sonic. Right there.

Now let me take my goggles off. I just want to take the time to make a point that I don't want my comments to be misunderstood as negative/shitstorm-like. When I look at S2HD, I see a game that I supported even when a good 3/4 of #retro were shitting all over it. I feel like I was the only one, outside of administration and development, who actually thought worked in a close knit group, separate from the community, was an actual good idea and only benefitted development. And look what's happened. We've got a promising project with competent physics and great graphics. Music is pretty damn fine too. All the little knit picks people seem to be blowing out or proportion are fixable, I'm sure. Even the placement of new level objects isn't enough to bother me. I think this game has profitted from every step this project has taken.

But I digress. Comon' man. Throw us a nostalgia bone. It's the fucking title screen for christ sake. You're just going to give up because you can't make sonic not look angry? You've proven yourself a competent artist, now show some damn backbone and give it another shot, huh? If not for the fans then for the game itself. A proper homage to the original, if you will.

There. I hope that rant was a little more coherent and a little less asshole like. (Let's face it, I sound like an asshole here too I bet.) But from here on, I don't intend to complain. I'm seeing some promising work and it can only get better as you guys progress.

[Aerosol]

Aesculapius Piranha, on 29 March 2012 - 06:09 PM, said:

Why the hell would I want to play this and inflate LOst's obviously overinflated ego? Fuck him and this project if this is how it's being handled.

And herein lies the problem. The artists claim to have little, if anything to with the DRM issues. Apparently it's all LOst's fault and well...

Let's put it this way. What we want to see is the upscaled/reimagined/whathaveyou art. The physics engine is the vehicle for that, sure, but as long as it's not horribly broken, that's not what's going to be noticed by the vast majority of people. I'm not interested in letting one person's apparent egomania kill whatever drive the artists have to finish the game.

Though I will say this. If his actions continuously hold up S2HD's progress, then I might take issue. He doesn't owe me anything, but to treat the people you're working with like that isn't cool.

[Endri]

I was not even going to comment on this—and I don't even know why I'm commenting on this—but now I feel I have to.

What is really happening here—but the people who are criticizing the project don't say—is that everyone find it unacceptable that all the effort, better assets and community decisions, in an once community project, have all been ditched in favor of a closed-source project, because a handfull of people with a complexity of self-importance decided that they would do it all themselves.

"Good afternoon, community, I just would like to announce that FUCK. YOU. ALL. You all only wasted years of your precious life time redesigning graphics, re-arranging songs, coding special stages and voicing your opinions in this bullshit, since now, we would like to announce that none of your designed material matters, because we are not going to use any of them."

And why this? For the sake of having an exclusive and closed-source engine, in hopes of being like Taxman and expecting SEGA to actually license/publish/fund/whatever their code/assets/engine/whatever.

There, I said it. For you who wanted to say it but didn't have the balls to say it out loud.

This is going to be my first (and quite possibly) my last post in this thread, because everything here has goten WAY off hand; I'll steer clear off of it as I do with everything with a number 4 on them.

Oerg866, on 29 March 2012 - 07:43 PM, said:

BTW, I like how L0st does not even comment on anything.


<GerbilSoft[derp]> guess you could say.. 8)
<GerbilSoft[derp]> ...he LOst The Game
<GerbilSoft[derp]> YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now, where is GerbilSoft?! I want to kiss him IRL. Pure genius!