[Palas]

It's not about loops (you see, my first Sonic game didn't have loops. I couldn't care less about them) or the way gimmicks are - it's just that they don't repeat themselves. It is interesting when there is an unique gimmick in a stage, like, say, the statue in Wacky Workbench. The thing is... really, they don't repeat themselves. Ever. Sonic 2's stages are short, but they use recurring elements.

And, why, yes, Sonic Adventure feels automated to me. It's not about being linear, though being linear is a precondition. Sonic Unleashed - some might say, I'd disagree - isn't linear. It is heavily automated nevertheless. So is Sonic Rush.

Sonic Adventure is damn fun. It really is. My complaint, though, is theoretical - it's about the best way to do something among all the possibilities for Sonic. That's what OP is about, no? The thing is - I don't know why criticizing Sonic Adventure's level design imples that I want rehash and classic games and whatnot. That's not it. The thing is about formulae that provides more possibility of fun for more players in a balanced way.

As for Zelda, I've exposed my view on why people don't mind the change in Zelda, but they did notice Sonic as absurdly different somewhere else. But this is indeed a different issue.

This post has been edited by Palas: 06 June 2012 - 07:01 PM

[Kharen]

I think that as much as everybody demands true Genesis-style physics, you don't quite need them to pull off a decent level. Sound insane? Well, hear me out...

Let's take a look at the earliest non-Genesis Sonic games, the games for Game Gear. I was playing through the Triple Trouble SMS rom the other day, and realized that as much as the Sonic games emphasize speed, the Game Gear games don't really have it at all. The running graphics and level design imply the speed is there, but you're not running all that quickly compared to the Genesis areas such as Chemical Plant. I realized that as long as you imply something very similar to what people want, if it's designed well to hide the limitations and what isn't actually there, people will still enjoy it.

I have an idea to test this theory. (This is what's going to sound insane.)

I haven't been able to figure out SonED very well, but I'm fairly decent at Lunar Magic, a tool for editing Super Mario World. I've been playing with the idea of using the SMW engine to create a Sonic game. As long as I can simply imply at what needs to be there, it should go over well. For example, if I can find a way to set it up so the game always assumes that the "Y" button is being held down, I can use Mario's different running animations (running, and then transitioning to the "ready to fly" speed and graphics) with Game Gear Sonic graphics to imitate Sonic's different running speeds and acceleration. Rolling momentum could be simulated by an ASM hack to treat the area as an ice level whenever the down button is pressed, possibly including rolling graphics if "Sonic" is ducking but still has X-movement. (If I can make this harm enemies, even better) If I can remove the sound effect for picking up a Mushroom, and make sure that Sonic's "Big Mario" and "Small Mario" graphics are identical, then Rings could be made with an item that acts like a Mushroom and adds 1 to the coin meter. All I would have to do is make it so any time Sonic is in a "Small Mario" state, his coin count reverts to zero to make it look like he lost all his Rings.

As long as the actual level design and graphics seem Sonic-ish, then the game should work out well as a Game Gear-style Sonic game. What do you think, plausible idea, or too dumb to work? (Besides, if it works well, you can easily make a Sonic game with over 100 Zones to play in.)

[Hukos]

Palas, on 06 June 2012 - 06:38 PM, said:

It's not about loops (you see, my first Sonic game didn't have loops. I couldn't care less about them) or the way gimmicks are - it's just that they don't repeat themselves. It is interesting when there is an unique gimmick in a stage, like, say, the statue in Wacky Workbench. The thing is... really, they don't repeat themselves. Ever. Sonic 2's stages are short, but they use recurring elements.

And, why, yes, Sonic Adventure feels automated to me. It's not about being linear, though being linear is a precondition. Sonic Unleashed - some might say, I'd disagree - isn't linear. It is heavily automated nevertheless. So is Sonic Rush.

Sonic Adventure is damn fun. It really is. My complaint, though, is theoretical - it's about the best way to do something among all the possibilities for Sonic. That's what OP is about, no? The thing is - I don't know why criticizing Sonic Adventure's level design imples that I want rehash and classic games and whatnot. That's not it. The thing is about formulae that provides more possibility of fun for more players in a balanced way.

I definitely agree that Rush feels automated, but that's in part because I take issue with it's physics and they don't quite feel like they were meant for precision platforming, but that's another argument.

Due to it's 3D nature, Sonic Adventure's levels don't have exact routes in plain sight. It's not like a 2D game where you can easily see an alternate path in front of you. However, shortcuts and the like are there if you're good enough at manipulating Sonic's physics (Mostly his incredibly useful spin dash). In Emerald Coast in the 2nd area, if you manage to obtain enough momentum you can run alongside a wall that allows Sonic to reach a hidden alcove leading to an extra life and a set of springs that acts as a shortcut. Not long after that, there's a section where Sonic can choose to jump off a high platform over water. If you screw up, Sonic will fall into the abyss but a skillful player can allow Sonic to reach solid ground and quickly reach a nearby spring that acts as another shortcut. Of course, my time spent getting all 130 emblems probably taught me all the tricks I needed to learn every trick in the book when it comes to speedrunning all of Sonic's levels, but these do exist, after all. Again, these shortcuts aren't in plain sight and take a bit of knowing the level and knowing Sonic's entire skillset and what he can do, but they do exist.

Speed Highway's first section is another good level to point out what I'm talking about. Right from the getgo, you can jump on the automated platform and wait for it to continue with the next segment of the highway. Or the skillful player can jump on the rail and maneuver Sonic carefully but quickly so as to save time and move on with the level. Then the player is given the opportunity to keep up their momentum to run on the side of the building and continue into an upper path, but if they fail to they're forced into the floor below and on the longer, lower path. The upper path also features an opportunity to connect onto a homing attack chain that allows you to get an extra life and allows for a shortcut directly to the rocket that ends the first third of the level.

And it goes on, there's examples for each level. I don't necessarily find it's design poor, though not nearly as focused on multiple paths as the 2D games (Though it'd be a lie to say that SA1's levels are completely devoid of shortcuts/alternate routes) but I still enjoy the design of the levels and find them rather entertaining to play through.

[Espyo]

Gah, one of the reasons why I like SA is because of how NON-linear it can be. Sure, if you follow the pretended paths, they're pretty linear. But if you take shortcuts, intended or not, there are several routes to take. But either way, one can notice that the levels in SA sometimes go back and forth; part of that is what allows for some shortcuts, like the very first shortcut in Emerald Coast (in which you jump over the invisible barrier and land on the first checkpoint's part). That's a step in the right direction, and, despite being accidental, it allows the explorers to take shortcuts and alternate paths, and allows the more casual players to hold forward to win. Then there are those parts in some levels that don't lead to alternate paths, but are a genuine part of the level design, that include some goodies. Case in point, the ludicrous amount of rings in Final Egg, some of them hidden in some small platforms that aren't forced.

Hukos, on 02 June 2012 - 06:07 PM, said:

As for Sonic Heroes, didn't Egg Fleet feature a decent amount of branching paths? Not as many as say S3&K would on average, but I wouldn't say it was a painfully linear level.

Egg Fleet is one of the most non-linear, but... it's still several lines straight forward. It's still linear, just with multiple paths.


But anyway, shouldn't we add these pics on these strategy guides to the wiki? I mean, they're freaking MAPS. You can't get much more useful or interesting than this.

[null1024]

TheInvisibleSun, on 05 June 2012 - 12:44 PM, said:

Palas, on 05 June 2012 - 10:06 AM, said:

Man, this gif in your signature is so amusing, I can't stop watching it.

Anyway~! Are there any guides for Sonic Colors? I'd like to analyze this game's level design further, because I have the feeling that there is something really wrong about its alternative paths.

I've been searching or them but I haven't been able to find them yet. I can try and draw them, if someone could supply me with the stage models.

There are some stage rips here: http://models-resour...lors/index.html

[Palas]

I guess I'll just have to concede. Some fair points you've made there.

I'd also like to bring some principles that I find valuable. Not regarding level design in itself, but the order between them.

• Having everything and having nothing is the same. You'll wander, looking for what you want, but never finding it.
  
• The line between memorable and displaced is blurry.
  
• True balance involves balance between balance and chaos.

Having everything and having nothing is the same. You'll wander, looking for what you want, but never finding it.

Long story short, don't make it the Knuckles' Chaotix's way. Don't make every level equally and overly detailed - that just makes the game polluted. There are a few issues that arise when there is too much detail overall. a) Everything looks relevant, so it's much harder to make something stand out if you want so. A reward or a threat, even a gimmick. Everything looks gimmicky. b) If everything looks relevant, everything looks irrelevant. It'll be just as boring and annoying as if there wasn't anything there. How can you distinguish a melody from a song that plays every single instrument at once? Too much detail will also probably make you deviate from your intended essential style.

Main offenders: Knuckles' Chaotix, sometimes Sonic Colors, sometimes Sonic CD, sometimes Sonic 3

This also applies to any element, not just art. Rings, for instance. If there are enough rings to make you never fear the lack of them, what's the point? If you give the player so much life that s/he doesn't have to fear death, it's pointless to give him/her life in the first place because it won't be valued or experienced.

Main offender: Sonic Heroes

The line between memorable and displaced is blurry.

You do want to make the player remember of all the levels you've designed. Not all memories have to be fond, though. Marble Zone stands out as a hard stage and maybe a dislikeable one, but the contrast between it and Spring Yard most likely enhances Spring Yard's fluid qualities. It's the same with Wacky Workbench in face of Stardust Speedway, Ice Cap against Launch Base - I could go on. But contrast has a limit. Separated, but beautiful links aren't better than a dull, common chain.

A way to bring linking in contrast is noticing how contrast has many instances. Ice Cap and Lava Reef Act 1 are two of the most distant levels ever - the fire/ice, blue/red, fast/blocky dichotomies are obvious - but they are linked by the fact that both have a very strong primary color. They aren't as mixed and detailed as, say, Angel Island or - for God's sake - Carnival Night. Here is where you could say they are a perfect match: it would be perfect if one followed the other, wasn't it for Lava Reef Act 2, which is blue all over again. Anyway, both are so memorable also because of their neighbours. Marble Zone is just as firey and reddish and blocky as Lava Reef Act 1, but it lacks a strong primary color (purple, but purble is a little too close to blue anyway). If Marble Zone followed Ice Cap, it would look so displaced no one would like it. It would be awkward. So it's important to keep at least one visual, general reference between two levels. Not like water and alcohol, but not like water and oil either.

Main offender: Sonic Colors, (Sonic & Knuckles would have offended it hard if there wasn't a Hidden Palace between Lava Reef and Sky Sanctuary)

True balance involves balance between balance and chaos.

Balance balance balance balance. All I have to say here is that a designer should let go sometimes. Just let go. Create some bizarre element. It's about being surprising, really. Too much focus on balance will make the game dull and predictable. If you can spot the game's train of thought, you'll kno what to do next and perhaps that wasn't supposed to happen. Of course, you can do this and deliberately subvert everything at the right moment, but this is really hard to do.

Be a little crazy here, there and everywhere. A relievingly easy level before and after hard ones at the endgame is a cool way to break the train of thought and generally creates fan favourites - Starlight Zone and Stardust Speedway are examples.

Main offenders: Sonic the Hedgehog for Master System, Sonic Generations

This post has been edited by Palas: 21 June 2012 - 09:33 AM

[Jayextee]

Palas, on 20 June 2012 - 07:02 PM, said:

Be a little crazy here, there and everywhere. A relievingly easy level before and after hard ones at the endgame is a cool way to break the train of thought and generally creates fan favourites - Starlight Zone and Stardust Speedway are examples.

"The calm before the storm". This kind of concept is an amazing way to make the difficulty of the last level seem like a leap instead of a mere step ahead; after the serenity of Star** in both games, the final zones seem like factories of pure pizza-cutter death.

Incidentally, I love some of the posts in this thread. I have been so tempted to post; such is my hard-on for level design theory (and Scarred Sun knows it) but I'm afraid it would be a textwall that would take a week to compose. I'm not even joking.

[Palas]

Jayextee, on 21 June 2012 - 05:11 AM, said:

Palas, on 20 June 2012 - 07:02 PM, said:

Be a little crazy here, there and everywhere. A relievingly easy level before and after hard ones at the endgame is a cool way to break the train of thought and generally creates fan favourites - Starlight Zone and Stardust Speedway are examples.

"The calm before the storm". This kind of concept is an amazing way to make the difficulty of the last level seem like a leap instead of a mere step ahead; after the serenity of Star** in both games, the final zones seem like factories of pure pizza-cutter death.

Incidentally, I love some of the posts in this thread. I have been so tempted to post; such is my hard-on for level design theory (and Scarred Sun knows it) but I'm afraid it would be a textwall that would take a week to compose. I'm not even joking.

Do post! We need more and more level design theory. It's the most interesting aspect in Sonic, and perhaps in platformers in general. I'm looking forward to see what you have to say about it.

Oh, and about the homing attack: if people are so adamant about implementing it, at least make it work like this:



Instead of our current this:



This way you don't lose momentum while using it and chains become something else - you don't need to hit every enemy, but, rather, hit one or two of them right enough.

This post has been edited by Palas: 21 June 2012 - 09:48 AM

[pablodrago]

Palas, on 21 June 2012 - 09:29 AM, said:

Oh, and about the homing attack: if people are so adamant about implementing it, at least make it work like this:

[img ]homingattackstillsucksb.png[/img ] LOL

Instead of our current this:

[img ]homingattacksucks.png[/img ]

This way you don't lose momentum while using it and chains become something else - you don't need to hit every enemy, but, rather, hit one or two of them right enough.

well if you ask me, the homing attack should be like this:

is something like the Snell's law (or refraction actually), when the angle between sonic and the badnik is the same before and after the homing attack, except the 90º, in this case sonic will do the Jump Dash, the same thing happen when the angle is between 180 and 360 (aka. sonic is is under the badnik). There is also a problem when sonic is a 0º/180º because is impossible to follow the chain so it needs an extra angle.
again, this is my opinion so maybe I'm wrong

[Palas]

Oh, your approach is actually much better, thanks for sharing it. It's perfect - the problem when Sonic is perfectly horizontal is very simple to solve: just make it work exactly like a spindash. You just kill the badnik and keep going normally. Since you're on the air, you'll just start falling. No need to make extra effort to keep the chain - it's the player's fault anyway.

This post has been edited by Palas: 21 June 2012 - 12:31 PM

[Sparks]

I think in Advance 2, Sonic can't even HA into something unless it's below him. It also can't home in to springs or item boxes, only badniks. Advance 2 treated it as an attack alone, rather than something level design and object placement took advantage off.

[TheInvisibleSun]

null1024, on 19 June 2012 - 04:25 PM, said:

TheInvisibleSun, on 05 June 2012 - 12:44 PM, said:

Palas, on 05 June 2012 - 10:06 AM, said:

Man, this gif in your signature is so amusing, I can't stop watching it.

Anyway~! Are there any guides for Sonic Colors? I'd like to analyze this game's level design further, because I have the feeling that there is something really wrong about its alternative paths.

I've been searching or them but I haven't been able to find them yet. I can try and draw them, if someone could supply me with the stage models.

There are some stage rips here: http://models-resour...lors/index.html

Thanks!

[SnazzyPaperBear]

I want to become a level designer and this is an awesome guide.

[Flipside]

This is an awesome guide, but I noticed something you didn't mention. Some of the secrets in Emerald Hill Zone can be accessed 2 different ways.

Close to the start of the pink route, after the 4 water falls, there's a tiny hill you can spin dash off of and go backward through the secret area with the 10 Ring item box at the top of the water falls.

Those Sonic games have awesome secrets...

Oh and the Homing attack, I think they could make it so you don't lose any momentum if you're holding the forward directional button, but lose some momentum if you're not pressing anything. Same thing goes for the jump dash.

This post has been edited by Flipside: 10 July 2012 - 01:31 AM

[Palas]

I will just leave some words on loops here. With stupid jokes and all.

Quote

Ah, loops, Sonic's signature level design feature and omnipresent shape in cities across Sonic world. We have been through many of them without every thinking about their potential within the general level design - mostly because we have more interesting and more important things to do.

But it's about 3:30 AM here (daylight saving time) and I can't sleep. This must be a sign of God to make me develop more level design theory, so here I am. Let us talk about the functions of the loops in level design.


I... honestly don't know how come there isn't any Sonic stage with this name

Let's not think as gamers right now. Let's think as designers. Well, the loop-the-loop is a specific geometry shape that, when subjected to the laws of physics, generates some kind of phenomenon on objects that move in it. In humans, going through one releases adrenaline because... well... it's thrilling. In short, an object needs enough speed to cross it without falling. To be specific, ignoring dissipative forces, it's kinetic energy when it enters the loop must surpass the maximum potential gravitational energy when it's on the top... I... think. Either way, this is an extremely uninteresting issue and doesn't really matter right now. What's really important is that there is a certain speed necessary to go through it.

Some people claimed the loops were obstacles because of this, but later another guy came up with a video showing how stupid this theory was, since nothing but holding forward is needed to overcome it. Indeed, loops can't be obstacles if they demand nothing but holding a button you were already going to hold anyway. If that was the case, we would have to consider each and every slope an obstacle, which would be stupid. However, we shouldn't dismiss this theory completely, because the loops are interesting features that aren't there for no reason at all.

If a certain amount of speed is required to go through a loop and it's very likely that the player will leave it at top speed, some points can be drawn:

• we know the probable speed the player will have at the beginning of the loop
  
• we know the probable speed the player will have at the end of the loop

This is an unvaluable tool to a level designer. If we know the condition a player will have after an event, but such even wasn't forced upon him/her, suddenly our possibilities expand for that moment. Let me give you an example:


Without a loop


With a loop

First-case scenario: we don't know if the player will be at top speed by the time s/he sees the platform. It depends on whether the player has already seen this area or not, whether s/he can beat the badnik without hesitating (and thus keeping momentum), whether s/he was at top speed before... it's not much clear what the conditions are to get this reward. What is certain, though, is that the player will have enough time to react, since it only depends on him/her.

Second-case scenario: we know that the player will be at top speed once s/he leaves the loop; we know s/he'll face the badnik once that happens - the likelihood of trying to defeat this badnik by rolling instead of jumping is something to consider, so we can design a badnik that doesn't allow that if we really feel like being evil; we know there is not enough space to reach top speed otherwise. There: now you have a clear challenge. One can only get the reward if one successfully uses reflexes twice: once to destroy the badnik (which now is not only an obstacle, but also a skill toll), once to notice the platform and jump right afterwards. And, at first glance, there is only one chance for that.

Simple, isn't it?

But let me tell you: what is the difference, then, from a loop to a dash pad? Well, don't go there. The difference is that player input is needed in one and not in the other, which is why it's stupid as hell to put a dash pad right before a loop. "Oh, but it's 3D" is not an excuse. If crossing the loop doesn't require any input, it's not needed. And it's not like you can compare it to a roller coaster, since it's not you there - it's Sonic. The loop doesn't hold any value by itself, except that of uniqueness.

True, it doesn't require any different movement from the player, but it does require the most basic input with a certain intensity. Oh, actually, let me correct myself - it demands a certain amount of speed. Such speed can come from various ways, and this is why it can be evil, too.

Consider the following:


Don't you call me out for my artistic skills. Just don't.

For all that matters, let's assume it's not possible to go through the loop just by pressing right. Now the loop has effectively become an obstacle, since it demands a different input for the player to continue. In this case, it makes the spindash obligatory. It turns out I hate this kind of obstacle, because it's just a forced tutorial. It's less offensive than a "Press Down+A to perform a spindash" screen, but still. And if you come and try to rebutt this point with that Egoraptor video about Megaman X, I will turn on a mechanical fan right before your nose and force you to stand there until you catch a cold. That video is about showing the player what he has to do. It's about subtle tutorials. If Sonic spindashes on the game's opening or as a menu icon, that's a subtle tutorial. Forcing you to use the spindash when the game doesn't make sure you know such a thing exists isn't. And yes, Sonic 3 & Knuckles did that wrong with the boulders. The optimal funcion of the spindash is that of easing the pain of having to come back just to get enough speed. Some parts in Sonic 1 got clunky because of that. But it should never ever be obligatory.

EDIT: Oh, I almost forgot.


Loops are probably the feature with the most potential when talking about playing with Gestalt. Because fuck you, Gestalt.