[W.A.C.]

Sonica, on 20 April 2012 - 11:16 AM, said:

Hmm. I'm not trying to displease everyone here, but I think it might solve all the problems if I simply keep his current move set. He has just as many moves as the other characters already, to add another would be to... let him have one more. I was thinking of giving every character a new move, but this is just... too complicated. I mean, there is something wrong with everything.

Sonica, on 20 April 2012 - 11:28 AM, said:

Well, Of course I want to do what the majority of you lot want, being Sonic 4 'as you imagined it', but there doesn't seem to be a majority here. Unless someone suddenly comes up with the brilliant solution of course!

It's up to you on what to do since it is your project, but I personally think you should do whatever you feel will make it a better game. Better to innovate than to have the game feel like a massive rehash. Every 16bit Sonic platformer brought something very new to the gameplay. Biggest things Sonic 2 added was the spindash, Tails, and multiplayer. In S3&K, the biggest changes were elemental shields being added, Knuckles was now playable, all of the characters now had their own special moves, the levels were much larger, the level design was now designed around three separate characters, every level had some kind of a transition, Super Emeralds were added, and all of the characters had special forms besides just Super Sonic. While not adding any new abilities is a safe option, not making any major changes to how the game controls would make the game feel much less of a step up compared to S3&K. And hell, look at the media reaction to Sonic 3 & Knuckles. While hardcore fans of the Genesis games usually view S3&K as the best of the bunch, Sonic 2 and Sonic CD are generally viewed as the best Sonic games to the mainstream gaming media. Even then, some people on this site like Sonic 2 way more and really disliked some of the changes made to the gameplay in S3&K. I remember one poster in particular viewed some of the changes as unneeded bloat and felt the levels were way too long. (I disagree with that guy 100%.)

You won't be able to please everyone here, but you're probably capable of making a game most of us would enjoy playing even if we disagree with some of the design decisions. Some of my favorite games of all time have aspects of the games that I strongly disagree with. That's normal. Hell, I'll give you an example. The first three Ratchet & Clank games probably make up my favorite gaming trilogy ever, yet I would have preferred the series to not adept the RPG styled health system was added in R&C2&3. That health system was well liked and had a major affect on the gameplay, but I didn't agree with that design decision because it made the older stages way too easy when you go back to older levels. I don't feel it improved any aspect of the game and it's kind of silly how Ratchet's health system reverts back every game, but my view on that is unpopular and I still absolutely love those games.

When it comes to wall jumping, there's a lot of people here for it and a lot of people here against it. By adding it, you can do new creative things with the level design that couldn't be done in the first three games. For a lot of people here that dislike that idea, I don't think it would completely ruin the game for most of them. Now if it was an ability barely anyone here liked, then it might not be something you want to add but that's not the case. Considering how so many people hate water levels in video games, if Hirokazu Yasuhara chose to not add any water levels in Sonic games because they would be the least popular trope in the entire franchise, we would've never gotten levels like Hydro City and Tidal Tempest. When the Angry Video Game Nerd recently did a retrospective about his memories with the series, all he could talk about when it came to Sonic 3 was how much he hated seeing Sonic drown. I personally love water levels but a lot of people use that Sonic level trope as an example of why they feel water levels suck.

You can only compromise so far without trashing a game's true potential. There's a reason why community based game projects never take off on this site. Best thing Sonic 2 HD did was make it closed project. Worst decision they made was choosing LOst as their programmer. Nothing wrong about wanting community input, but it's difficult to get this site's community to massively agree on anything with few exceptions. Biggest ones that come to mind is the fact an overwhelming amount of the community thinks the spindash and momentum based gameplay are great, and that Sonic 4: Episode 1's physics are garbage.

[Kampfer]

I think W.A.C. hit the nail straight on the head. I wouldn't design this game only based on what the majority of people want. Do what you feel works for the type of game you want to build. If you think something like walljumping would have been a natural progression of Sonic's abilities had Sega continued numbered sequels in the 90's, great. From what I gather from your mission statement about this fan-game, its to make a Sonic 4 that lives up to the namesake of being a numbered sequel. I think you're on the right path by focusing on game play and physics first and foremost, but also think with details (such as level tropes, enemy design and character attributes) you should exercise a lot of your own discretion, as you are a Sonic Fan yourself.

I think you asking for input is great, since good ideas rarely come from one person alone, and one person usually can't see all the pros and cons of an idea by themselves. However, I wouldn't exclude (or include) an idea meerly because it does not have a clear majority. This is the Sonic Community, there is almost no such things a clear majority opinion about anything.

On a side note, maybe you can take a page from Sonic 3C and make certain things optional. I see that project a lot as Sonic 3 as I would imagine if if it were not split into two games.

[dsrb]

Kampfer, on 20 April 2012 - 07:04 PM, said:

maybe you can take a page from Sonic 3C and make certain things optional.

Do you mean Tiddles’ Sonic 3 Complete? Not to be pedantic for its own sake, but Sonic 3C refers either to the pre-release version before it was split into two games or to Hayate's Sonic 3 Customisable, the latter of which has been on hold for over a year while he pursues other interests.

Anyway, providing options is great to a certain point, assuming it doesn't dramatically change and/or break any of the gameplay; however, I'm inclined to agree with W.A.C. that the ultimate “You” in As You Imagined It is you! Getting feedback and ideas is great, but draw lines where you want; otherwise, as has been said, excessive concern over everyone's opinion and attempts to accommodate/harmonise them may well lead to nothing ever getting done.

[Jayextee]

Might I suggest on Sonica's behalf that "Sonic 4 - As you imagined it" is merely a title, and not to be taken literally - just the same as How to Lose Friends and Alienate People isn't in actuality some kind of bizarre reverse self-help guide. It's just a title. I do believe, however, that Sonica's intention is to provide a spiritual fansequel that provides more of an authentic aesthetic to a Sonic 3 & Knuckles follow-up, should it have been the very next game Sonic Team actually worked on in the mid '90s; which is how you/we/I/we/you imagined it, regardless of specifics.

I know Sonica's said that he welcomes ideas, but don't push it. Too many cooks, and all that.

[ReBirFh]

My last post got overshadowed a few pages ago but I still think you should try to take some inspiration from Parkour and Freerunning not only it's popular but also is what Sonic is all about.
If you look back, Sonic fly a plane and skydive in Sonic 2 (MD), hang glide in Sonic 2 (MS), snowboard in Sonic 3 and bungee jump/rappel in S&K, he is the cool guy and you should bring this back to him.

I wouldn't dismiss wall jumping from his move set, keep it in mind and if you design a level and feel a certain section would benefit from it then you implement, wall jumping is "speed based" but for that he
shouldn't cling or slide down the wall instead make it work with the principles of the rebound and the timing of the insta-shield, you need to press the jump button again at the right time for it to wall jump and the distance
is entirely based on how fast you hit it.

I would love to see a world that is more alive but I'm afraid dealing with the limitations of Gamemaker will be your biggest problem.

This post has been edited by ReBirFh: 22 April 2012 - 08:02 AM

[winterhell]

ReBirFh, on 22 April 2012 - 07:52 AM, said:

wall jumping is "speed based" but for that he
shouldn't cling or slide down the wall instead make it work with the principles rebound and the timing of the insta-shield, you need to press the jump button again at the right time for it to wall jump and the distance
is entirely based on how fast you hit it.

wall jumping like Icy Tower ?

[Falk]

Falk, on 15 April 2012 - 04:20 PM, said:

Oh, oh, wallrunning is actually a nifty idea, even if nothing more than a recurring gimmick in several acts.

Edit: Derp, just checked out ME2D. What I had in mind was more of a running-forwards-along-the-backdrop type idea usable only on certain tiles, with marginal up/down control. And if you dropped below a certain forward velocity you fall off the wall.

Just quoting myself to say sometimes fate has an awkward sense of irony. You'll understand what I'm referring to soon, if you don't already.

[Thousand Pancake]

ReBirFh, on 22 April 2012 - 07:52 AM, said:

My last post got overshadowed a few pages ago but I still think you should try to take some inspiration from Parkour and Freerunning not only it's popular but also is what Sonic is all about.
If you look back, Sonic fly a plane and skydive in Sonic 2 (MD), hang glide in Sonic 2 (MS), snowboard in Sonic 3 and bungee jump/rappel in S&K, he is the cool guy and you should bring this back to him.

I wouldn't dismiss wall jumping from his move set, keep it in mind and if you design a level and feel a certain section would benefit from it then you implement, wall jumping is "speed based" but for that he
shouldn't cling or slide down the wall instead make it work with the principles of the rebound and the timing of the insta-shield, you need to press the jump button again at the right time for it to wall jump and the distance
is entirely based on how fast you hit it.

I would love to see a world that is more alive but I'm afraid dealing with the limitations of Gamemaker will be your biggest problem.

I'm just afraid that the developer may end up giving up easily if he does run into the brick wall and not want to start over using a better engine. And I would be very upset if that happened.

[Sonica]

If the worst comes to the worst and Game Maker doesn't work very well, of course I will use a better engine, but I won't be the one making it.

Edit:
Well, because you lot really feel Game Maker is a terrible choice, as soon as someone offers something better, I'll take it. Then I can focus on the art.

This post has been edited by Sonica: 23 April 2012 - 10:31 AM

[dsrb]

Then again, there's always Mercury's forthcoming engine for Sonic in GM. I don't have the experience to comment on whether GM's a turd that can be polished, but if anyone could do it…

[winterhell]

Game Maker is probably bad(from what I've seen) for a high resolution game. If you can afford to have several times higher system requirements than a regular DirectX/OpenGL engine, go ahead. If the game is in lower resolution, like 640*480 it wont be a problem either. Then again I could be wrong.

[Sonica]

I haven't actually ever seen a HD Game made with Game Maker, which is why I was hoping that it would work.

Anyway. I've started on some other art, finally:

This is final, I'm not putting it up to get criticism for it, I just wanted you to get a small idea of the (non-scenery) art style.

Although, if I feel like making edits to things after I show them, of course I will.

[Black Squirrel]

Surely it needs to be a late 90s Apple computer to fit with tradition

[Falk]

It needs highlights on the top surfa... oh. :C I'll just shut up and play the game!

[Mercury]

dsrb, on 23 April 2012 - 02:31 PM, said:

Then again, there's always Mercury's forthcoming engine for Sonic in GM. I don't have the experience to comment on whether GM's a turd that can be polished, but if anyone could do it…

Game Maker is capable of amazing things, but about 30% of your effort is spent working around its myriad idiocies and baffling limitations. AeStHete will be moving to C++ and I also hope to make it a community project, but there's a fair amount of preparation I have to do first. Expect an announcement relatively soon.