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Sonic 1 prototype images Both topics now merged together

#196 User is offline 0r4ng3 

Posted 03 March 2012 - 07:31 AM

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View PostRika Chou, on 28 February 2012 - 05:04 PM, said:

Nice, you can really see the monster more clearly now:

Posted Image

This place, always deliverin'.

View PostBlack Squirrel, on 29 February 2012 - 12:40 PM, said:

The lesser of the three images
Posted Image
Sonic's face seems to have been completely re-modelled. In fact, the whole thing might be a size bigger than in the final - the lettering is slightly more spaced out too.

Looks like Needlemouse design was programmed at one point. This and the concept enemies that appear with Madonna condradict what that crazy SoA lady said at the Gametap Retrospective. Didn't she say all of it (Needlemouse's original design, Madonna, the band) had been scrapped as early as concept stage? Then what's it doing in protos? I never believed her BS, the band was programmed and got scrapped due to the Sega scream, not the localization. Now these two things surface.

#197 User is offline ICEknight 

Posted 03 March 2012 - 07:59 AM

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View Post0r4ng3, on 03 March 2012 - 07:31 AM, said:

Looks like Needlemouse design was programmed at one point. This and the concept enemies that appear with Madonna condradict what that crazy SoA lady said at the Gametap Retrospective. Didn't she say all of it (Needlemouse's original design, Madonna, the band) had been scrapped as early as concept stage? Then what's it doing in protos? I never believed her BS
Not to mention, the "Needlemouse" term originated from a mistranslation in a UK TV show, which seems to have been taken as gospel for years now.

As far as we have officially documented, SEGA never used the term "needlemouse" until Sonic 4; they rather used "harinezumi" (literally, hedgehog).
This post has been edited by ICEknight: 03 March 2012 - 08:24 AM

#198 User is online Neo 

Posted 03 March 2012 - 09:48 AM

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View PostICEknight, on 03 March 2012 - 07:59 AM, said:

Not to mention, the "Needlemouse" term originated from a mistranslation in a UK TV show, which seems to have been taken as gospel for years now.

In fact, isn't it a transliteration of "hari nezumi" (needle mouse), as opposed to "harinezumi" (hedgehog)? To my knowledge the earliest known name for Sonic was simply "Mr. Hedgehog", but Needlemouse stuck as a cute nickname in the fan community.

#199 User is offline ICEknight 

Posted 03 March 2012 - 10:16 AM

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View PostNeo, on 03 March 2012 - 09:48 AM, said:

View PostICEknight, on 03 March 2012 - 07:59 AM, said:

Not to mention, the "Needlemouse" term originated from a mistranslation in a UK TV show, which seems to have been taken as gospel for years now.

In fact, isn't it a transliteration of "hari nezumi" (needle mouse), as opposed to "harinezumi" (hedgehog)?

Well, yeah, that's what I really meant.

The sketch said "Mr. Harinezumi" and those guys got it wrong for some reason.

#200 User is offline Lanzer 

Posted 03 March 2012 - 10:21 AM

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View PostHez, on 02 March 2012 - 02:58 PM, said:

Dude...seriously? There's like 5 people before them that caught that shit and literally were not mentioned, in fact, both of those barely contributed to the fact it was that concept art. I really feel like glory's going to the wrong people here.


Everybody is overlooking the fact that I said "The rest of you lot" meaning there was more then those 2 who came together to form those sprites. I knew that there was more then those 2 guys who helped.

Didn't mean to spark up a debate.

#201 User is offline Black Squirrel 

Posted 04 March 2012 - 09:54 AM

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Possibly notable, most likely not

Posted Image

There are no jumping badniks in the final version of Sonic 1.

But there is...

Posted Image

evolution?
This post has been edited by Black Squirrel: 04 March 2012 - 09:54 AM

#202 User is offline The Growler 

Posted 04 March 2012 - 11:42 AM

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View PostNeo, on 03 March 2012 - 09:48 AM, said:

View PostICEknight, on 03 March 2012 - 07:59 AM, said:

Not to mention, the "Needlemouse" term originated from a mistranslation in a UK TV show, which seems to have been taken as gospel for years now.

In fact, isn't it a transliteration of "hari nezumi" (needle mouse), as opposed to "harinezumi" (hedgehog)? To my knowledge the earliest known name for Sonic was simply "Mr. Hedgehog", but Needlemouse stuck as a cute nickname in the fan community.


Which has gotten me thinking... I wonder if in some small way "needle mouse" is kind've a pun on another famous cartoon character: Mickey Mouse (considering they're relatively similar, and they both wear the same gloves)? SEGA wanted a character that can compete with Mario, so why not choose something that is similar in style to Mickey Mouse.

#203 User is offline ICEknight 

Posted 04 March 2012 - 12:01 PM

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View PostThe Growler, on 04 March 2012 - 11:42 AM, said:

View PostNeo, on 03 March 2012 - 09:48 AM, said:

View PostICEknight, on 03 March 2012 - 07:59 AM, said:

Not to mention, the "Needlemouse" term originated from a mistranslation in a UK TV show, which seems to have been taken as gospel for years now.

In fact, isn't it a transliteration of "hari nezumi" (needle mouse), as opposed to "harinezumi" (hedgehog)? To my knowledge the earliest known name for Sonic was simply "Mr. Hedgehog", but Needlemouse stuck as a cute nickname in the fan community.


Which has gotten me thinking... I wonder if in some small way "needle mouse" is kind've a pun on another famous cartoon character: Mickey Mouse (considering they're relatively similar, and they both wear the same gloves)? SEGA wanted a character that can compete with Mario, so why not choose something that is similar in style to Mickey Mouse.

...But we were just saying that SEGA seems to have never really used "Needlemouse" until Sonic 4. :colbert:

Something like that might have been the reason for the TV show guys to fuck up on the translation, though.
This post has been edited by ICEknight: 04 March 2012 - 12:21 PM

#204 User is offline MastaSys 

Posted 04 March 2012 - 12:46 PM

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I think needlemouse is just the literal translation of the japanese word for hedgehog. (So Mr. Hedgehog would be a better name for his early days.)

which reminds of that 06 cutsceen that Eggman compares Sonic to a mouse, him beeing a "needlemouse", that sounded extra lame in the english. (which Eggman said just Hedgehog instead.)
This post has been edited by MastaSys: 04 March 2012 - 12:47 PM

#205 User is offline SonicGenesis89 

Posted 04 March 2012 - 03:49 PM

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View PostOverbound, on 03 March 2012 - 05:34 AM, said:

Here is my attempt at the monster.
Posted Image


I love your take on recreating the monster guy, Iceknight's as well. I'm curious as to if these enemies had names in this point of development.

#206 User is offline GeneHF 

Posted 04 March 2012 - 03:56 PM

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I kept wondering why that badnik looked familiar. One good night of sleep and an eclectic dream later.

Posted Image

Reggie!

#207 User is offline Rika Chou 

Posted 12 March 2012 - 12:49 AM

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So I noticed that in this shot that we have had for years, look at the clouds. They are overlapping tree. Just like the new shot with the japanese text. Also, if you look at all four shots we have, you will never see clouds behind tress.

Posted Image


So I now believe that the Japanese text was in the ROM and for some reason all the clouds were in th foreground like the rocks and trees.
This post has been edited by Rika Chou: 12 March 2012 - 01:09 AM

#208 User is offline Lanzer 

Posted 12 March 2012 - 12:54 AM

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Is it me? or does the run sprite look alittle different too?

Gosh just soo many new things to learn about this build out of new screenshots. we can study them for days and still keep an interest.

#209 User is offline LOst 

Posted 12 March 2012 - 01:43 AM

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View PostRika Chou, on 12 March 2012 - 12:49 AM, said:

So I noticed that in this shot that we have had for years, look at the clouds. They are overlapping tree. Just like the new shot with the japanese text. Also, if you look at all four shots we have, you will never see clouds behind tress.

Posted Image


So I now believe that the Japanese text was in the ROM and for some reason all the clouds were in th foreground like the rocks and trees.

Yes, you are absolutely right! That's a discovery!

Hmm, we must count for the sprite limit of the Genesis VDP hardware. It is obvious the Japanese text is not sprites, so it is probably a 256x256 meta block that scrolls with the level. The bottom palmtrees and rocks are too many horizontally stacked, so if those were sprites a few sprites would disappear, so they must be scroll A. Scroll B is then used for the floor that Sonic's running on, and low priority for the background. That means that the background is moving the same speed as the "floor" foreground (both sharing Scroll B). That makes the red text scroll with the level layout and background at the same time.
The clouds might be part of Scroll A, or sprites (as long as there are no more than two at the screen at once, and the size is not too great, but I can't be sure about that fact!).

With the fact that the clouds are overlapping the palmtrees, it is very difficult to imagine that demo looking any good in action :(
7 scroll layers might have been possible if there weren't any sprite limits or order restrictions between Scroll B and Scroll A High and Low plane. I wish we could get more infor about this demo from Naka himself.

EDIT: I forgot you can still use scroll RAM or the H-int to split BGs into scroll stripes. That means the bottom clouds that overlap the palmtrees are of Scroll A but scrolling at a different speed than the Scroll A front palmtrees and the stone. Because the top clouds are being overlapped by the bottom clouds, they must belong to Scroll B but of course scrolling at a different speed than the palmtrees that are behind Sonic. Sonic is between Scroll B's low (back palmtrees) and high (grass) planes. BUT I can't explain the red text overlapping the back palmtrees, unless the red text and the palmtrees of that same plane is just art, like drawn together.



============

On another note, I decided to clean up the CES 1991 Sonic 1 prototypes videos so that you can (almost) see pixel movements and (almost) all frames:
http://www.logotypes..._speed_720p.avi

Youtube can't keep the same quality, but here it is (watch as 720p full screen):


The early build (the debug coordinates) must have come from Sega, as video media! That video might still be around, and might have more coverage!
It has water color the same as sky color and backdrop border color. And Sonic is not fully developed "Naka-certificated", as the frame he jumps, his bounding box Y offset change happens one frame before the jump animation kicks in. But that is not all. The bridge translates Sonic wrong. How it is wrong, I can only guess, and I guess it is one frame lag. This build is so interesting because it would really show how much trouble naka went through to order Sonic's bounding box changes, and how he first developed the interactions that became the foundation of his Sonic games. He has stated that this development time was his best times as a programmer because it was so difficult to tune everything in. That build would testify the difficulties of creating Sonic from scratch and really show how much of a geneious Naka was.

However, just because the HUD says RING instead of RINGS doesn't mean it is just one build of Sonic 1. The playable build of Sonic 1 that was available at CES 1991 is not the same build, as the backdrop border color is now light blue (the same as the water color), to cover up the nasty water scroll tile update bug. It is still a "RING" HUD prototype, and still has the purple sunflowers palette, but this build is possibly a much later one!
This post has been edited by LOst: 12 March 2012 - 10:47 AM

#210 User is offline Vangar 

Posted 12 March 2012 - 08:02 AM

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His early full-speed running animation looks similar to the SMS one, in a sort of horizontal squished sort of way.

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