[Aquaslash]

You forgot the part where the SEGA CD is even more limited to work with than the Genesis. All it really allows for is CD music, weird deformation effects and crappy FMVs

[Chilly Willy]

Aquaslash, on 28 January 2012 - 01:59 AM, said:

You forgot the part where the SEGA CD is even more limited to work with than the Genesis. All it really allows for is CD music, weird deformation effects and crappy FMVs

Well, it limits you for a SINGLE LEVEL since you've only got 256 KB or so of space to work with, BUT you can have any number of levels. If you have very little code running on the CD CPU, then you have maybe another 700 KB of space to work with. It's not THAT limiting for a game like Sonic, and does give near infinite levels. If one level is too big, split it into two or three or 10000 acts. You have the room for that on the CD. :D

This post has been edited by Chilly Willy: 28 January 2012 - 02:12 AM

[Stealth]

I think the issue is less whether many people are concerned with having a thousand levels and more what they believe they can fit into a single one. It's my experience that there are plenty of people just from sheer lack of knowledge that assume you have instant access to a full 640MB of data (as if read from cartridge ROM) when using the SegaCD

It's also my experience that it can sometimes be a task to work a decently-featured single level with the available space, having actually performed this feat with a Sonic the Hedgehog game personally :P

[Vangar]

Cool to see this hack (Can you even call it a hack anymore?) will continue. I've got a Sega CD and recently played the last release of Megamix and it's great fun. What were the development choices to put homing attack in though? I always thought classic fans didn't want that in their 2D sonic games.

[Gsuki]

Vangar, on 28 January 2012 - 07:15 AM, said:

Cool to see this hack (Can you even call it a hack anymore?) will continue. I've got a Sega CD and recently played the last release of Megamix and it's great fun. What were the development choices to put homing attack in though? I always thought classic fans didn't want that in their 2D sonic games.

Well, in this game, it does helps to get speed most of times, not like that is a problem. People who don't like homing can turn off that in preferences, anyway.

[Clutch]

New title screen's rather nice. Unusual to see a Classic Sonic screen without any actual characters on it, but I guess this game does have a pretty massive cast and it's much better than just straight up using Sonic 1's.

[KingofHarts]

Gsuki, on 28 January 2012 - 07:31 AM, said:

Vangar, on 28 January 2012 - 07:15 AM, said:

Cool to see this hack (Can you even call it a hack anymore?) will continue. I've got a Sega CD and recently played the last release of Megamix and it's great fun. What were the development choices to put homing attack in though? I always thought classic fans didn't want that in their 2D sonic games.

Well, in this game, it does helps to get speed most of times, not like that is a problem. People who don't like homing can turn off that in preferences, anyway.

Or they can simply choose not to use it. LOL Personally I like the homing attack.

[The Growler]

Chilly Willy, on 28 January 2012 - 02:11 AM, said:

Aquaslash, on 28 January 2012 - 01:59 AM, said:

You forgot the part where the SEGA CD is even more limited to work with than the Genesis. All it really allows for is CD music, weird deformation effects and crappy FMVs

Well, it limits you for a SINGLE LEVEL since you've only got 256 KB or so of space to work with, BUT you can have any number of levels. If you have very little code running on the CD CPU, then you have maybe another 700 KB of space to work with. It's not THAT limiting for a game like Sonic, and does give near infinite levels. If one level is too big, split it into two or three or 10000 acts. You have the room for that on the CD. :D

Forgive my ignorance, but isn't there a way to 'fake' the transition of one level to another? Ie. make a map as usual that's one level long, but don't have an 'end' to it; perhaps have come sort of cut scene while the next level loads up, that way it'll make it appear to be one big level. I guess you could even do that as many times as you want!

[Cinossu]

The Growler, on 28 January 2012 - 12:46 PM, said:

Forgive my ignorance, but isn't there a way to 'fake' the transition of one level to another? Ie. make a map as usual that's one level long, but don't have an 'end' to it; perhaps have come sort of cut scene while the next level loads up, that way it'll make it appear to be one big level. I guess you could even do that as many times as you want!

Getting the timing right with the load sequence, as well as making sure everything was sync'd correctly, would be the hardest part of this. While theoretically possible (as far as I know), it's a lot more work than it looks.

[E-122-Psi]

KingofHarts, on 28 January 2012 - 08:36 AM, said:

Gsuki, on 28 January 2012 - 07:31 AM, said:

Vangar, on 28 January 2012 - 07:15 AM, said:

Cool to see this hack (Can you even call it a hack anymore?) will continue. I've got a Sega CD and recently played the last release of Megamix and it's great fun. What were the development choices to put homing attack in though? I always thought classic fans didn't want that in their 2D sonic games.

Well, in this game, it does helps to get speed most of times, not like that is a problem. People who don't like homing can turn off that in preferences, anyway.

Or they can simply choose not to use it. LOL Personally I like the homing attack.

I think homing attack works for Sonic if balanced properly and enough mechanics are implemented to exploit the move, he always felt too much like a dud character without it (Mighty has his original moves but also has a 'shield manager' to exploit them better). Though maybe I shouldn't start this arguement again.

Concerning level size limit, that was something that bugged me a bit about CD (though it did make a little sense considering the item searching involved as well). Megamix on the other hand has fairly large levels anyway.

This post has been edited by E-122-Psi: 28 January 2012 - 04:32 PM

[Kharen]

Wait, using the Sega CD means you end up with shorter levels? Honestly, I never noticed. I always liked the idea of taking Sonic CD, removing the time travel gimmick, and turning each time zone for each level into it's own Act. A 60 level Sonic game would be pretty awesome as long as the levels stayed consistantly well-designed. Throw in S&K style cutscenes between levels and it would be just about perfect.

Then again, I'm getting off topic, here...

Anyways, I was kind of curious, how difficult was it to come up with the custom boss battles like in Dark Fortress Zone (Marble Zone replacement)? I've played a lot of SMW hacks, and noticed that nearly all custom bosses in them have either far too limited animation where you feel like you're fighting a photograph, or a dull and uninspired boss that's only there to be different. Honestly, the DFZ boss in MegaMix was far too difficult for where it was in the game, but it was my absolute favorite part, other than the beautiful graphics for Sunny Shore Zone (Green Hill Zone replacement -- I can never remember all the different level names, and internet trouble's keeping me from looking it up. I want to finish this post before the WiFi starts acting up again). By the way, who's the one who's been doing the custom artwork? It looks amazing.

By the way, I remember a couple bugs from the last release. One was the booster/loop combo after the Sunny Shore boss en route to the capsule. If you held right while on the loop, you'd get launched through the wall and die. In Dark Fortress Zone, there was a spot where you could build up too much speed and die too easily from the game not being able to keep up vertically. Did those get fixed?

[Chilly Willy]

Kharen, on 29 January 2012 - 04:37 PM, said:

Wait, using the Sega CD means you end up with shorter levels? Honestly, I never noticed. I always liked the idea of taking Sonic CD, removing the time travel gimmick, and turning each time zone for each level into it's own Act. A 60 level Sonic game would be pretty awesome as long as the levels stayed consistantly well-designed. Throw in S&K style cutscenes between levels and it would be just about perfect.

It COULD be shorter. You can always make a level longer in less memory by using more repetition. The main limit for a level is the number of unique tiles needed for both the level and the characters in the level. Assuming you don't cut back on characters or character animation, you have to cut back on background tiles. Instead of three different palms, maybe just one - instead of six different flowers, maybe just two or three. Instead of 500 different ground tiles, maybe 250. That sort of thing. Remember that you can store the tiles in the CD memory compressed, just like the tiles are compressed in the cart roms for the cart versions.

So when we say running from CD "limits" each individual level, it's not nearly as bad as it sounds. Good level design can cover a multitude of "sins".

[Stealth]

Kharen, on 29 January 2012 - 04:37 PM, said:

Anyways, I was kind of curious, how difficult was it to come up with the custom boss battles like in Dark Fortress Zone[...]? I've played a lot of SMW hacks, and noticed that nearly all custom bosses in them have either far too limited animation where you feel like you're fighting a photograph, or a dull and uninspired boss that's only there to be different.

To answer a question that was asked earlier in the thread, every single boss from the original game is being replaced, and most already have been. To respond to you, specifically, there's a big difference between what people do for Mario World (by my understanding) and what we're doing for Sonic. Jman (who is majorly responsible for the functionality of our new bosses) may be able to fill you in on specifics about modifying SNES games, since I don't really have any experience with it, but to begin with, I think there are some important differences. Also, if I'm correct, Mario World assembly mods are done as patches, in addition to having to obey certain other limiting rules. Some of it is probably pretty impressive technically, even if not visually. We, on the other hand, are modifying the game at a source level, and are free to do more with it. That certainly doesn't mean that what we do is never complex in function, though :P

Kharen, on 29 January 2012 - 04:37 PM, said:

By the way, who's the one who's been doing the custom artwork? It looks amazing.

Some of the previous stuff, like the "remixed" art, was done by StephenUK. The original stuff that's been cropping up more recently is being done by MarkeyJester

Kharen, on 29 January 2012 - 04:37 PM, said:

By the way, I remember a couple bugs from the last release. [...] Did those get fixed?

The previous version was released incomplete, without a lot of testing. A lot of bugs/errors have been fixed by intent and happenstance, and a lot more have turned up. Every one of them we can find and handle will be squashed before the final release

Chilly Willy, on 29 January 2012 - 06:12 PM, said:

So when we say running from CD "limits" each individual level, it's not nearly as bad as it sounds. Good level design can cover a multitude of "sins".

To respond to this, we're definitely attempting to use trickery to both circumvent and mask the "limitations". Hopefully the levels, for example, will appear fair or better in length and variation :P

[Stealth]

So, let's generate some more positive energy here

Quote

To instil even more confidence over Megamix's continuing development, here's a playthrough of the current in-progress version of City Outskirts Zone for you to get a load of, including the new graphical design and some new objects by MarkeyJester, new layout by Robjoe, and CD audio by Geckoyamori. You may also note the new presentation design for Titlecard, HUD, Monitors, and Starposts by Cinossu

This particular level currently isn't exactly long enough for my taste, but that's because it also isn't complete; It terminates where the boss arena was built based on the previous release. It does provide a taste of the overall design, though, as well as hints of Robjoe's much improved layout skill, with my hasty playthrough contributing to not giving TOO much away

You may have noticed I said "boss". You may also notice what happens at the end of the video. Yes, that clearly indicates one of 5 existing brand-new bosses by jman, which itself is roughly 85% complete, and yes, that is our brand-new, 100%-complete CD boss tune by Verse. No, I'm not presently going to totally spoil either one of them for you :P

[Ross-Irving]

Let's see. Full, rich looking level art, gimmicks that don't do all the work for you, one or two new, but nicely designed badniks that provide a change in obstacles, level flows nicely, appropriate length - yeah, this is checking out nicely. My only problem with the level is the colors used in the palette. If there's no way to get around that, okey dokey, but yeah.