[Metal Man88]

Aerobian-Angel, on 09 April 2012 - 11:50 PM, said:

For one thing, a LOT of people that I know remember the Classics' stages based off of their experiences with them —not the backdrop itself, hence the gimmicks. I've heard titles such as: "Spinning Tops", "Pink Water", "The One With The Stupid Enemy Placement" (Metropolis, don't ya know?), and many more. For one thing, Sonic 4 did have limitations on its gimmick expansion, but the thing is that Episode 1 went for simple/scarce gimmicks on the grounds that the fans wanted things to be "SIMPLE ON GAMEPLAY LIKE THE CLASSICS!!!!111!!", only to get yelled at for not being "EXPANSIVE ON GAMEPLAY LIKE THE CLASSICS!!!!111!!"

Ah. Rephrasing someone's arguments to make them sound stupid makes you correct, does it? No, I don't think so.

Also, both are technically true. The former is Sonic 1, the latter is more like Sonic 3K. Sonic 2 is sort of in the middle. It didn't have bubbles, booster/spring abuse in every stage etc though.

Aerobian-Angel, on 09 April 2012 - 11:50 PM, said:

Episode 2 is doing a good job at trying to find that ever-fluctuating Happy Medium between the two demands, but contrasting comments as aforementioned are not helping. For one thing, we've only gotten SOLID (not spliced) footage of White Park and Sylvania Castle. For what they're worth, we've gotten ourselves a good amount of stage-specific elements:

Happy medium? Nope. They've just made both sides mad. I don't think that's doing anyone much good, except for those who want this bizarre "middle."

Aerobian-Angel, on 09 April 2012 - 11:50 PM, said:

Sylvania Castle has foreground/background platforms (something that the Classics NEVER did, mind you),

Mushroom Hill never existed.

Aerobian-Angel, on 09 April 2012 - 11:50 PM, said:

extended loops (don't forget that you noted freaking elevators as one of your points), ruins-shifting switches.

So it has about four gimmicks. Still not enough, and as the other person said, they are inferior gimmicks.

Aerobian-Angel, on 09 April 2012 - 11:50 PM, said:

"IT'S GOT MORE! IT'S MORE FUN!" (or "IT'S TOO CONVOLUTED! IT SUCKS!" for those supporting simplicity). Hardly the case.

Making it all caps like that is not an argument. Perhaps you had a point when you listed off all the gimmicks, but you didn't address the springs, the bubbles chains, and the other overused automation in this segment of your post. Not to mention that the quality of the remaining gimmicks is, in a lot of cases, inferior.

Aerobian-Angel, on 09 April 2012 - 11:50 PM, said:

Not to mention the recurring gimmicks like the SAdv3-inspired Co-op mechanics for flying to new heights and barreling through enemies and terrain in a double-spindash (despite it being brokenness, yet silly-looking as well).

I am a fan of the classic games, not Sonic Advance 3. The presence of that is a net negative to me. It neither flows like the movement of Sonic and Tails in Sonic 3 nor does it really add much that a normal spindash couldn't do.

Aerobian-Angel, on 09 April 2012 - 11:50 PM, said:

And while these may be burdened with the recurring theme of Springs, Boosters, and Bubbles as well, they're not NEARLY as plentiful as in Episode 1 (I really just think that the designers wanted it to ALWAYS feel like a speedrun or something), as the game footage shows (contrary to the trailers). What I want to know is why did Dimps insist on so many Boosters when Sonic traversed the first slope in White Park (which was quite steep) just fine? It's like they don't trust their own coding, so they frequently slap on Boosters and springs...

Even you agree with me, in the end. The springs, the boosters, and the bubble chains ruin what the other gimmicks set up. If the boosters and springs and bubble chains (and the more nonsensical bottomless pits) left the game and emulated the much less frequent spring/booster design of the games before, maybe this game would be worth purchasing for me. As it stands, it isn't, because it plays like those Sonic Advance games I disliked. Again, this is Sonic Advance 4, not Sonic 4. I don't really care if other people like it (and they are free to sing its praises for all I care), but you're not going to change my mind with capital letters and exclamation points.

Aerobian-Angel, on 09 April 2012 - 11:50 PM, said:

Speaking of gimmick-frequency, Episode 2 appears to be working with different sets of gimmicks per Act. Whereas Sonic 1-3K has the same gimmicks copied-and-pasted across its Acts for the most part (somewhat subverted in some stages of Sonic Knuckles).

I liked Sonic and Knuckles' half more than Sonic 3's half for this reason. However, even when the gimmicks are copy-pasted across the acts, they do not abuse boosters and springs and bubble chains in every level, making that more tolerable to me than this "improvement" in which the gimmicks are halved, and they vary those fourish ones while keeping bubbles chains and boosters and springs in all acts.

Aerobian-Angel, on 09 April 2012 - 11:50 PM, said:

As far as I am knowledgeable of, the games are either all in the same boat or Sonic 4 constantly renews its gimmicks to keep the game feel fresh throughout the levels. Personally, I like having new challenges per Act when given the choice, as I expect it to have more memorable experiences. Whether or not it actually will, is to be determined when the entire game itself is available to play.

So, like me, you would rather not be plagued by boosters and springs. It's okay. You can make a post without telling someone else they're wrong. You could just simply disagree. Furthermore, you like there being more gimmicks, ones which renew. This "Dimps Happy Medium" doesn't seem to work for you either. So is it really Happy? You don't seem to want sparseness either.

Aerobian-Angel, on 09 April 2012 - 11:50 PM, said:

But enough of my drivel on 2 stages, I wonder how the other Acts and levels will pan out like...

In conclusion: You could have simply said "I... don't really know what to think" rather than going on about opposite opinions and rambling incoherently about some "happy middle" which... you then indicate is not happy. O... kay... Really... I don't mind if you like Sonic 4. Or if you think it will somehow be better than it looks right now. I just find the whole thing disappointing. Wasted potential. Lazy design.

This post has been edited by Metal Man88: 10 April 2012 - 05:52 AM

[Falk]

It just occured to me, I think a lot of people would have less beef with momentum-less homing attack (myself included) if the badnik debris flew backwards. You know, Newton's third law and all that. It may be simply visual but it helps a lot with suspension of disbelief and making it look less... unnatural.

[Spanner]

Blue Blood, on 10 April 2012 - 02:21 AM, said:

Skyler, on 10 April 2012 - 12:23 AM, said:

Re: Sonic 4 beginning as Sonic 4, Ken has said in a few Ep1 interviews that they started on the project knowing full well that it would be Sonic 4. I'm calling BS on that one, personallay.

I know the one solid source we have is Jun Senoue saying he was asked to do the music for a Megadrive-style game but at that point a name hadn't been decided. It was in an interview in a Nintendo Power...

Quote

NP: What was your reaction when you first heard that Sonic the Hedgehog 4 was finally going to happen after more than 15 years?

JS: Takashi Iizuka and I worked together at Sonic Team USA for a long time-from Sonic Adventure through Nights: Journey of Dreams. Before that, the Sonic game either of us ever worked on was Sonic the Hedgehog 3. So we first met...I think it was 17 years ago now. Anyway, he came to me one day out of the blue and told me thaqt we were going to do a classic Sonic game again! At that moment, we didn't know yet if it was going to be called Sonic the Hedgehog 4. But from the very beginning, he wanted me to compose the music in the same style as the classic Genesis games. Both he and I were really excited about the project and had a lot of fun working on it.

So yeah, I'll call bullshit on what Ken said too.

And this also backs up what I was saying that it was Iizuka who made Senoue the sound director for Sonic 4.
When you need someone to blame for some of the mess of this game, you know you can blame Takashi Iizuka for it.

This post has been edited by SOTI: 10 April 2012 - 08:21 AM

[SlapStick]

You know, so far this game is looking great! I love the graphics and I also love the fact that the physics are fixed. The level design looks really good, especially White Park and (from the looks of it) Oil Desert. One thing I don't like is the level names themselves. Yes, I know that Sonic Zone names haven't exactly been what you would call creative but still. I like White Park, but Oil Desert and Sylvania Castle? They aren't very good. Of course, they aren't horrible, but I guess I just expected more out of the names.

[Chaos Rush]

My question is, why the hell was Dimps hired to do Sonic 4? From the looks of it, SEGA has always hired Dimps to do the "cheap" titles, like the handheld games and Unwiished, so why did they choose Dimps to work on a game with the title "Sonic the Hedgehog 4", knowing that Dimps simply doesn't have the capability of producing a title worthy of that name? In other words, why did they consider the name "Sonic the Hedgehog 4" a game that should be a "cheap" title?

Quote

But from the very beginning, he wanted me to compose the music in the same style as the classic Genesis games. Both he and I were really excited about the project and had a lot of fun working on it.

The bolded part doesn't make any sense if you listen to the music used in Sonic 4...

This post has been edited by Chaos Rush: 10 April 2012 - 04:59 PM

[VizardJeffhog]

It saves SEGA time and money, maybe? I dunno...

In any case, the game is good enough to warrant a purchase from me (though I practically cave in to nearly every Sonic game). Can't wait to get a chance at it next month.

[Sonic Warrior TJ]

I don't think it's a case of Dimps being incompetent as much as it's a case of SEGA only dishing out X number of development dollars and Iizuka still being in charge. If he wants to make a racing game so badly, he needs to get with Naka and make Super Ferrari Racing X-Treme.

[Chaos Rush]

Sonic Warrior TJ, on 10 April 2012 - 04:56 PM, said:

I don't think it's a case of Dimps being incompetent as much as it's a case of SEGA only dishing out X number of development dollars and Iizuka still being in charge. If he wants to make a racing game so badly, he needs to get with Naka and make Super Ferrari Racing X-Treme.

I don't think Sonic 4 had shitty physics and shitty music just because of a small budget and Iizuka. Wasn't Iizuka one of the level designers of Sonic 3 and Sonic & Knuckles? I seriously doubt that Iizuka told the Dimps developers, "I want shitty physics!" and I doubt he told Jun Senoue, "I want a soundfont that goes like meow meow meeooowww!". Although the whole downloadable episodic thing is pretty lame, was that Iizuka's decision?

In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Iizuka thinks Sonic 4 is just as shitty as I (and many others) do. He only defends the game because that's part of his job.

[ancara]

Chaos Rush, on 10 April 2012 - 05:10 PM, said:

Sonic Warrior TJ, on 10 April 2012 - 04:56 PM, said:

I don't think it's a case of Dimps being incompetent as much as it's a case of SEGA only dishing out X number of development dollars and Iizuka still being in charge. If he wants to make a racing game so badly, he needs to get with Naka and make Super Ferrari Racing X-Treme.

I don't think Sonic 4 had shitty physics and shitty music just because of a small budget and Iizuka. Wasn't Iizuka one of the level designers of Sonic 3 and Sonic & Knuckles? I seriously doubt that Iizuka told the Dimps developers, "I want shitty physics!" and I doubt he told Jun Senoue, "I want a soundfont that goes like meow meow meeooowww!". Although the whole downloadable episodic thing is pretty lame, was that Iizuka's decision?

In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Iizuka thinks Sonic 4 is just as shitty as I (and many others) do. He only defends the game because that's part of his job.

Right now, I think the better question to ask is this: Who is in charge of DIMPS?

Perhaps if we know who they are, and are able to talk sense into them, then things might possibly go well?

I mean, I know Iizuka is everyone's favorite target now-a-days, but this IS a DIMPS project after all. Deal with the shenanigans involving their head and convince them to fix up the mess (or at least make them realize that they dun goof'd), and then perhaps it'll all be fixed up.

But that's just my silly opinion.

[DinnerSonic]

Chaos Rush, on 10 April 2012 - 04:48 PM, said:

My question is, why the hell was Dimps hired to do Sonic 4? From the looks of it, SEGA has always hired Dimps to do the "cheap" titles, like the handheld games and Unwiished, so why did they choose Dimps to work on a game with the title "Sonic the Hedgehog 4", knowing that Dimps simply doesn't have the capability of producing a title worthy of that name? In other words, why did they consider the name "Sonic the Hedgehog 4" a game that should be a "cheap" title?

Quote

But from the very beginning, he wanted me to compose the music in the same style as the classic Genesis games. Both he and I were really excited about the project and had a lot of fun working on it.

The bolded part doesn't make any sense if you listen to the music used in Sonic 4...

I still think they don't consider "Sonic 4" to be anything more than one of those cheap titles, especially in the earlier stages. So take that out and you have a downloadable 4 zone Sonic title partly for handhelds with a low budget, sounds like more of a "cheap" title after that.

Either way, you got a company producing decent hits as far as 2D Sonic games went on handhelds, probably doing better than the Rivals games, and they have an engine that as we learned was reasonable to port to handhelds and consoles. So it probably makes sense to them to stick them on their nostalgiafest quick download title with an overambitious name, rather than get someone else to make an engine from scratch.

(random thought: People ask why they didn't base off the Advance engine which is closer to the classics... could it be that the Rush engine was more suited for multiple resolutions verses the possibly more pixel based GBA engines? Mix that, Sonic 4's apparent attempt at being modern and the springy style of the level designers...)

[Caniad Bach]

SEGA wanted a cheap, downloadable title. Sonic sells, so they wanted to make a Sonic game. Fans wanted back to basic classic gameplay (Which SEGA saw as, "We want 2D"), non fans were content with playing the old shit. DIMPS had a 2D engine ready made, and were the team that did the low budget titles. SEGA gave the game to them, and at some point it was decided to call the game Sonic 4 for obvious marketing reasons. How is this not completely obvious?

[Hero Of Fate]

To be fair, it seems like Episode 2 uses the Sonic Generations 3DS engine. Not quite sure if that's a mod of one of the previous engines but, it actually has physics.

[VizardJeffhog]

So I'm sure you guys got wind of possible pricing. Looks like Episode 2's gonna be 1200MP on XBLA.

[SSE]

I think that the Tails element will be too much of a gimmick. I know how some people complain that Tails doesn't have a major role, but they took it to literally. Tails JOINS with Sonic to perform a spindash. I hope that it will not be as bad or gimmicky as it appears to me.

Other than that, if it truley will have better physics and graphics, if the storyline is great, if the music is improved, and if there is enough nostalgia in the levels, I think that it will be an OK game. I haven't played it, but I'm giving it an early score of 6.5/10, which is Satisfactory. (This is my personal opinion.)

[Hero Of Fate]

I have played it, and Tails doesn't seem to get in the way all that much. There was one part in White Park where I had to do that super Spindash, and that was like it. Now, the good side of it is that you can do the moves whenever, not just at prompts, so you can fly around looking for crap.