[Solaris Paradox]

Guess Who, on 28 February 2012 - 01:16 PM, said:

Just to clarify: my video was absolutely not made with the intention of defending Sonic 4. I just think this idea of "the level designers meant loops to be obstacles, not showpieces" is silly when they absolutely went out of their way to make sure there were easy ways to obtain momentum immediately proceeding a loop in almost every instance and frequently used several in a row just for effect.

True enough; it's more about balance, isn't it? Getting the right measure of both skill and spectacle into the level designs?

This post has been edited by Solaris Paradox: 28 February 2012 - 01:41 PM

[Blue Wisp]

From that GamerLive video, I can comment that unless Sonic the Hedgehog 4 - Episode 2 is 800 MSP or less, this game won't be part of my library. But I am speaking too soon, we hardly have seen two Zones, I will wait for a demo before I decide if I buy it or not. So far, I'm 60% I'll buy it, but I'd rather see all the Zones before I can confirm that.

Even still, the Zones Card is sexy

[Machenstein]

Sonic Warrior TJ, on 28 February 2012 - 12:06 PM, said:

Metal Man88, on 28 February 2012 - 11:57 AM, said:

To boot, I think if we were to count the springs and boosters per act, we would expose directly what is wrong. Namely old stages made springs optional while the new ones cram them into every possible nook and cranny. There really shouldn't be so many in a so-called "Classic" Sonic game.

This. And springs should be solid again. One thing I thought was cool about Sonic Advance was that it used the newer design, but the springs were solid, and you could even stand on the diagonal ones if I remember correctly.

I absolutely agree. Part of what made springs so engaging (at least vertical springs) was that, again, player input was required. If you were speed-running but tried to jump on the spring too soon, Sonic would do his pushing animation on the side of the spring instead.

Another thing that needs to be brought back to the springs is midair control of Sonic as he ascends from the springs. These days you're only given midair control of Sonic just as he begins his descent from the springs. That's just plain bull.

[Dark Sonic]

Am I the only one who doesn't care if springs are solid or not?

[Roller]

Dark Sonic, on 28 February 2012 - 01:46 PM, said:

Am I the only one who doesn't care if springs are solid or not?

Honestly, me neither. Non-solid springs mean jack shit, it's only their usage that's really a problem.

I don't mind running into the side of a spring sending me into the air, but I do care if that spring sends me into five other springs, then a speed booster.

Also I totally agree with everything you guys have said about usage of automation - it's all about the player's options.

This post has been edited by Roller: 28 February 2012 - 01:56 PM

[Kogen]

Dark Sonic, on 28 February 2012 - 01:46 PM, said:

Am I the only one who doesn't care if springs are solid or not?

I care deeply and am offended. It is like not making the buttons grey with that pitched 'dink' noise.

[Lambda]

The major problem with the modern usage of springs is that, in the old games, they were a TOOL, the player used them to reach higher ground. That's why the springs were solid before. The player needed to DECIDE to use the spring by jumping on it. That also made it more rewarding.

However, in the newer games, springs are used to drive the player, to make them head in the diraction the developers want you to go in. They are a tool the DEVELOPERS use, not one used by the player.

This is furthur shown in the way springs just shoot you up when you run into the side of them. The developer WANTS you to take that route, so they just shoot you into it without the player's concent. The only way to avoid taking such a path is to DENY the spring by jumping over it, which is actually pointless, because the linear level design forces you to take that path anyway.

This post has been edited by Lambda: 28 February 2012 - 03:41 PM

[serpx]

Lambda, on 28 February 2012 - 03:40 PM, said:

The major problem with the modern usage of springs is that, in the old games, they were a TOOL, the player used them to reach higher ground. That's why the springs were solid before. The player needed to DECIDE to use the spring by jumping on it. That also made it more rewarding.

However, in the newer games, springs are used to drive the player, to make them head in the diraction the developers want you to go in. They are a tool the DEVELOPERS use, not one used by the player.

This is furthur shown in the way springs just shoot you up when you run into the side of them. The developer WANTS you to take that route, so they just shoot you into it without the player's concent. The only way to avoid taking such a path is to DENY the spring by jumping over it, which is actually pointless, because the linear level design forces you to take that path anyway.

Aren't there many instances in the classic games where the springs were either required, or were used to drive the player? The lack of a solid spring, from memory, hasn't yet taken away from my enjoyment of any of these new Sonic titles.

[Machenstein]

The bigger issue is the game temporarily takes away midair control from the player as soon as Sonic hits the spring. This problem wasn't even in Sonic Rush. This is something Sonic 4 introduced and it hasn't seemed to change for Episode 2.

[Lambda]

serpx, on 28 February 2012 - 03:49 PM, said:

Lambda, on 28 February 2012 - 03:40 PM, said:

The major problem with the modern usage of springs is that, in the old games, they were a TOOL, the player used them to reach higher ground. That's why the springs were solid before. The player needed to DECIDE to use the spring by jumping on it. That also made it more rewarding.

However, in the newer games, springs are used to drive the player, to make them head in the diraction the developers want you to go in. They are a tool the DEVELOPERS use, not one used by the player.

This is furthur shown in the way springs just shoot you up when you run into the side of them. The developer WANTS you to take that route, so they just shoot you into it without the player's concent. The only way to avoid taking such a path is to DENY the spring by jumping over it, which is actually pointless, because the linear level design forces you to take that path anyway.

Aren't there many instances in the classic games where the springs were either required, or were used to drive the player? The lack of a solid spring, from memory, hasn't yet taken away from my enjoyment of any of these new Sonic titles.

I'm just generalizing, yes, there were often places where you had to use them. As for driving the player... there sometimes were places where it pushed you in a given direction... but there weren't these insane spring-chains everywhere like there is now.

And, I'm not saying that the springs are now horrible, and I feel anxiety whenever I see a modern spring on my screen. They aren't completely awful, but I think many people are just frustraited by the loss of control. The game doing things FOR the player took away any sence of accomplishment from the player. Same thing with the spring boosters right before the loops. In the older games, there was a sence of accomplishment when one ran around a loop. It wasn't difficult, but the player did it themself. The fact that Dimps puts a booster in-front of each loop takes away any sence of accomplishment. It's no longer something the PLAYER did, it's something the game did FOR the player.

What it all comes down to is that peopl like to have control over Sonic themselves. They don't want the game moving him for them.

This post has been edited by Lambda: 28 February 2012 - 05:54 PM

[serpx]

I agree, the loss of control is something that I found frustrating in Sonic 4. I hope SEGA considers this in Episode 2, or puts the change into Episode 3.

Food for thought, I wonder if the lack of control is due to the homing attack addition? Kinda hard to detail what I mean, but it makes sense to me to program a spring to send a player in a forced direction if the player has targeted a spring from whatever angle, if that makes any sense.

This post has been edited by serpx: 28 February 2012 - 05:56 PM

[synchronizer]

Those diagonal springs have been there since Sonic Advance 3 I believe...rather annoying.

[Solid SOAP]

I don't understand why the homing attack was introduced in the first place, it's not like it was in any of the Rush or Advance games (It wasn't mandatory, I mean). I don't understand what was going through their minds when they decided to put it in the game, it really does not add anything to the level design but confusion and things that simply don't fit in the classic games. If, say, it was a power-up or combo-move that you had to find or earn to use, that'd be fine. It just shouldn't be necessary to complete the game, especially not in a game designed with old school Sonic in mind.

[Lambda]

synchronizer, on 28 February 2012 - 06:04 PM, said:

Those diagonal springs have been there since Sonic Advance 3 I believe...rather annoying.

Well, DIAGONAL springs have been there since Sonic the Hedgehog 2. The Spring Chain phenomenon began around Sonic Advanced 3, though.

Actually, there were Spring Chains in the Adventure series. I remember plenty of them. However, they are more justified in a 3D environment.

This post has been edited by Lambda: 28 February 2012 - 06:54 PM

[Machenstein]

I personally wouldn't mind the Homing Attack if it were just used as an ability that differentiates Sonic from Tails and Knuckles. Unless you would rather have Sonic Boost be that ability.