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Mario & Sonic ~ The Adventure We're Still Waiting For How to balance two distinct playstyles and still be epic

#1 User is offline Writer's Blah 

Posted 27 December 2011 - 06:31 PM

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Ah, the old Sonic v. Mario debate. An incredibly hot topic of the nineties that has finally been put to rest (for the most part) by none other than a series of sports themed mini-game compilations, as well as Sonic's inclusion in Nintendo's flagship series, Super Smash Bros. All of these games have sold insanely well (although their quality can definitely be argued) and as we can all see, both SEGA and Nintendo seem perfectly content with their products.

But to many of the longtime fans, the debate still has not been totally resolved. In truth, the one thing that the fans still TRULY long for is a huge, platforming adventure that lets the two heroes and their friends, possibly, visit each other's worlds, duke it out, and ultimately team up to bring down some greater evil. However, as has been proven before, this request, though seemingly simple, is a lot harder to bring to fruition than it seems. After all, both franchises have always been both known best for their platforming, right? True, but the problem comes in when you consider how radically different the two playstyles between a Mario and Sonic game are. Osamu Ohashi discussed this in great detail, but what he said can be summed up to this:

Quote

These characters come from two totally different backgrounds, and have completely different worlds. If you do any kind of collaboration, you can't just get them to run on one of the Sonic stages or vice versa. You have to create something from scratch, a neutral location. Nintendo and SEGA never managed to agree on just where or what kind of universe we could set a Mario and Sonic adventure in.

Then, some time ago, SEGA secured a license to create games based on the Olympics. At that point I came up with the idea of having Mario and Sonic compete with each other in the Olympic games setting. We proposed that idea to Nintendo and they were really positive and interested in the idea, so that is where we started building it into a concrete game proposal.


And now we have a hedgehog and a plumber competing in friendly Olympic-themed competitions. Yup. :specialed:

This issue seems to be a rather stumping one, and it can be really hard to discern what measures would actually have to be taken in order to create a quality Mario & Sonic adventure. Of course, the guys over here at Retro are all incredibly smart, and I'm quite certain we could come up with some solution. I myself have an idea that I consider to be quite good and I believe covers all the bases that would be required to be present and agreed upon by both Nintendo and SEGA, but I'll stay quiet unless asked for the time being. As of right now, I'd like to hear from you guys, and what your opinions/thoughts/solutions on the matter would be.

#2 User is offline Crasher 

Posted 27 December 2011 - 07:13 PM

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I remember seeing something about this somewhere on dA. Lemme see if I can find it again.

Edit: Should make myself more clear:

An idea for a Mario and Sonic Platforming game.
This post has been edited by Crasher: 27 December 2011 - 07:15 PM

#3 User is offline dsrb 

Posted 27 December 2011 - 07:20 PM

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Oh man, someone find that post where Robotnik and Bowser set Sonic and Mario against each other by telling Sonic that Mario went around killing turtles and all that stuff.

Anyway, for better or worse, this hypothetical game will never happen. (I haven't seen anything of the Olympics series to judge whether it should have ever happened, so I'll leave that to everyone else!)

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In truth, the one thing that the fans still TRULY long for

Really? All of them, as an amorphous mass?

I have my doubts whether the majority have even ever thought about it.

#4 User is offline OSM 

Posted 27 December 2011 - 07:20 PM

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3D Land levels designed like pinball tables with rolling physics.

Done. The perfect Mario and Sonic game.

#5 User is offline Sparks 

Posted 27 December 2011 - 07:34 PM

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Unleashed style gameplay in Mario levels and slow platforming in Sonic levels?


Wait nvm, SEGA just did something like that. :ssh:

Speaking of Super Mario 3D Land, I sure hope SEGA takes inspiration from its gameplay.

#6 User is offline AuroraRedwinters 

Posted 27 December 2011 - 07:39 PM

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I must be strange because I never have wanted a Mario and Sonic (platforming) game. :psyduck:

#7 User is offline Namo 

Posted 27 December 2011 - 07:40 PM

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View Postdsrb, on 27 December 2011 - 07:20 PM, said:

(I haven't seen anything of the Olympics series to judge whether it should have ever happened, so I'll leave that to everyone else!)

They're standard mini-game fare; nothing to write home about but nothing to hate on either.

I can't see a "Standard" Mario and Sonic game working too well. How would it work, exactly? Play some levels as Mario, some as Sonic? You could just alternate between playing a Sonic game and a Mario game, unless you care about whatever story the game will have, or alternatively seeing Mario run through Sonic themed worlds, and Sonic run through Mario themed worlds. Neither worlds are particularly interesting out of context, though, especially Sonic's as of late.

#8 User is offline Mr Lange 

Posted 27 December 2011 - 07:42 PM

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Mario cannot run loop de loops, and the game would suck if you took those out.
The problem is pretty much an unsolvable paradox.
Unless of course you did something similar to Sonic Generations, where there's a half of every stage designed specifically for the character's individual play styles.

#9 User is offline SomeSortOfRobot 

Posted 27 December 2011 - 07:48 PM

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I always thought it'd be cool if they got Intelligent Systems to do a Sonic/Mario action RPG

#10 User is offline LordOfSquad 

Posted 27 December 2011 - 07:57 PM

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View PostSomeSortOfRobot, on 27 December 2011 - 07:48 PM, said:

I always thought it'd be cool if they got Intelligent Systems to do a Sonic/Mario action RPG


Was literally just about to post this. Just have Mario & Sonic instead of Mario & Luigi. Done.

#11 User is offline Machenstein 

Posted 27 December 2011 - 08:04 PM

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View PostMr Lange, on 27 December 2011 - 07:42 PM, said:

Mario cannot run loop de loops, and the game would suck if you took those out.

They could just put platforms beside the loop-de-loops, enabling Mario to get over them.

They could also bring back these things from Mario World.

#12 User is offline Secret Bonus 

Posted 27 December 2011 - 08:35 PM

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I really think it'd be best to do it like Generations, 5-7 known Mario and Sonic levels. Hell, take the opportunity to use levels that almost got in Generations. I totally would be down for speeding through Pinna Park.

#13 User is offline Writer's Blah 

Posted 27 December 2011 - 08:55 PM

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Well, since everybody seems at a loss as to how this game would work out, (“unsolvable paradox”, you say?) I shall propose my own idea.

First, I would like to propose a somewhat new engine that we would be introducing to both characters. I'll start with our main stars.

Sonic's gameplay will be a combination of the three major gameplay styles we have seen in the series so far: Genesis gameplay, Adventure gameplay, and Unleashed gameplay. In your typical 3D areas, physics will resemble SA2's physics, with moves from both Adventure and Generations (short-range jump dash/homing attack, SA2-style spin dash, rolling used by Tails and Knuckles in SA1, quick step, drifting, and a nerfed boost.) In 2D, a crapload of these abilities will lock, leaving you with Sonic 2's moveset and physics plus the Super Peel-Out. We got the shields from S3&K, SA2's light-speed dash, Generations wall jumping, and two options to fall downwards: a regular fall that can be used at any time as log as you're in midair, akin to the fall move from SA1, and Unleashed's stomp which can be upgraded to SA2's bounce attack, which actually would serve a purpose in platforming. The two “falls” can be used interchangeably, which could make for some interesting speedruns.

Mario's gameplay would basically resemble Galaxy's moveset with Sunshine's physics. Why Sunshine? Because honestly, Sunshine had a better engine in terms of jumping. You were a lot freer to pull off crazy stunt combos that simply aren't possible in Galaxy's engine. Of course, FLUDD would not be present, so Galaxy's moveset would obviously take precedence. Maybe mix in the forward slide from Sunshine, and you would have a pretty good Mario.

The matter of having which things being Mario-themed and which ones being Sonic-themed could be summed up around your character and your current area. If you're playing as a Sonic character, then you're going to have rings instead of coins, and they're going to function the same way they do in Sonic games, regardless of whether you're in a Mario level or not. Vice versa for Mario characters. Power-ups would be a bit testier in this aspect. The way I see it, certain power-ups will only be visible to the characters from which those items exist in.

As for the matter of a Sonic-level not fitting Mario characters and vice versa, who said the same level layouts had to be used? Pull a Generations and make Mario levels that are Sonic-themed and vice versa.

View PostMr Lange, on 27 December 2011 - 07:42 PM, said:

Mario cannot run loop de loops, and the game would suck if you took those out.



Mario can't run loop-de-loops? Just introduce a power-up that makes Mario run faster for a limited time, like the Rainbow Star from Galaxy, except without invincibility.

And to answer Ohashi's question about having a “neutral” area for Mario and Sonic, I also have a solution which could even later justify the whole Olympic Games ordeal. Get this: Shangri-La. Why? I got my own back story for this and everything, but Shangri-La's in China, right? After Mario and Sonic save their own respective lands along with Shangri-La, the king/emperor/what-have-you invites them to participate in the Beijing Olympics as a sort of reward for saving said lands. See, it all works out!

I actually have a whole game planned out in my head, complete with plots and everything. If anybody's be interested, I'd be more than happy to share some more.

#14 User is offline Scripten 

Posted 27 December 2011 - 10:10 PM

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Hm... first coming into this topic, I was pretty much of the mindset that a Sonic/Mario crossover game couldn't really work. However, after thinking about it, wouldn't the difference between Mario and Sonic gameplay be little different from those present between Sonic and any of his friends? Granted, the slower speed would stop him from being able to go through loops or up big slopes, but that's where the individual paths for each character would open up. In fact, to really exemplify the crossover status of the game, a number of elements from each series could be injected into each level. For example, from the Sonic side, we've got various gimmicks like vines and shields, which can be used by either character, as well as ones, like loops, or even zoom tubes, that only Sonic can use. From Mario, we've got all the different powerups, which could benefit either character in different ways, as well as pipes and breakable blocks, which only Mario would be able to pass through. With enough care, a level designer could create some of the most extravagant stages in either series and have them work for both characters.

#15 User is offline Writer's Blah 

Posted 27 December 2011 - 10:22 PM

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View PostScripten, on 27 December 2011 - 10:10 PM, said:

Granted, the slower speed would stop him from being able to go through loops or up big slopes...




Yoshi's Dash Pepper says hi.

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