[Black Squirrel]

jasonchrist, on 27 December 2011 - 12:52 PM, said:

What you could do is base your sprite on the classic artwork, forget about the Sonic 3 look and work to recreate the Sonic 3 poses. Kinda like what Generations did with Sonic's waiting sprite which incorporated the waiting animations from all the classics.

a.k.a. borrow the graphics from Sonic 2 HD? Sonic artwork didn't exactly change a whole lot between the two games.

[Relick]

Black Squirrel, on 28 December 2011 - 07:29 AM, said:

jasonchrist, on 27 December 2011 - 12:52 PM, said:

What you could do is base your sprite on the classic artwork, forget about the Sonic 3 look and work to recreate the Sonic 3 poses. Kinda like what Generations did with Sonic's waiting sprite which incorporated the waiting animations from all the classics.

a.k.a. borrow the graphics from Sonic 2 HD? Sonic artwork didn't exactly change a whole lot between the two games.

We've spoken to S2HD and we've agreed to create all assets ourselves, no taking from the other project.

Sure it would save a lot of time making Sonic but I for one would feel really guilty because they would have had to spend the time making it. It might be perfect for what we want, but it's not right to steal people's artwork.

This post has been edited by Relick: 28 December 2011 - 08:47 AM

[Dario FF]

I say don't worry about the artwork too much at the moment, focus on getting up a playable engine that is able to replicate the original gameplay decently and handle anything you need for all the levels. You wouldn't like to see running into a problem which means you have to entirely rework your map's save data because you had to add sequences or something. Also, don't merge the game logic with graphics rendering at all. Heck, you got XNA available, who says you might even have the idea of making it 3D later!

You can look for some pretty accurate physics on some open-source projects around, or heck, even the whole wiki data. THEN you should worry later about graphics. Heck, if you want a reference, even Sonic Generations doesn't depend at all on level geometry. As long as it has the physics collision files, the game is playable with no stage actually being rendered.

Open Sonic, source code available.

That one was pretty reliable the last time I checked. You can use it for reference on how to build any gameplay you need. When you've reached the point you can actually replicate all the game's stages without severe glitches, even with placeholder art, you can worry about artistic direction then.

Of course, reinterpretation of the whole game would be a much funner idea(hence, why everyone is jizzing over the idea of seeing Sonic 3K stages on Generations), but if you're aiming for making an updated version of the game, it would be a more organized way to do it.

This post has been edited by Dario FF: 28 December 2011 - 08:55 AM

[Jayextee]

Bizarrely, I like the early development here. However, I see this progress more what I would call a concept image; albiet in motion, if you follow. It's one possible look the project could have.

My advice? Do this again. Different zone, so you remain sane throughout, but a different approach, too. Go hogwild. Pop-art S3K, cel-shaded S3K, even texturise the fuck out of it (because I wouldn't mind S3K made out of fabrics and cardboard a la Yoshi's Story, and don't care if I'm alone with it).

To have got this much done so quickly means you're dedicated, and this is good. But find a decent style (which will be difficult given S3K's inconsistent mish-mash, but that's by the by) before making the other zones. Being slavish to the original graphics will only get you so far, you're going to have to create something fresh to really impress.

I remember getting a message about this project from my YouTube about some cloud graphic I quickly knocked out in the early days of S2HD (where I tried to get the guys doing exactly as I've just suggested now) and linked to a very early progress (I think you had the title card font and a mushroom. That was about it), and you've come along so damn well since then. But it's not time to knock out final graphics yet, but find out the best method to do so. Part of trying the different styles entails the experience of making the graphics - you may find something that looks great and takes next to no time to produce - the holy grail of design.

Just don't go hell-for-leather with what you've got right now. It's good, but lacks a lot of what is required to be great.

[Eduardo Knuckles]

saxman, on 28 December 2011 - 12:04 AM, said:

I applaud the S3HD people for trying to put something together that pleases the fans.

Fortunately I'm not the only one here that see a potential and a good future in this HD remake. I didn't played it yet because of my video board that broke sometime ago, but I've seen the video. The remake's idea looks really good, but I fell the lack of the background deformation/scrolling. This need different layers, if you pay attention on the original game you'll see that the background of the levels aren't 100% solid like walls. The S3 HD remake needs this. Also my major complaint is about the music. I think it's too simple and too much like its original song. I know that this is a remake, but high quality music needs much than simply instrument changes and equalization. Take this as example of what I mean to.

[DeoxysKyogre]

Me too, I do also see a lot of potential in this fangame. I love the improvements of the graphics there. Great work, keep up your good work, guys!

This post has been edited by DeoxysKyogre: 28 December 2011 - 09:27 AM

[Cinossu]

Time for my two pence, I guess.

I've kinda been following this since its "conception", mainly the artwork stuff, and then lost interest after a while. From what I remember, the Mushroom Hill background looked wonderfully detailed, and even now it does too. The rest here, however, not so much. The foreground tiles look like rubber, with no definition beyond a simple resize, smooth out and gradient. The sprites.. they look diabolical. Sonic looks like an accident with a resize and vector tool, and the rest.. just, no. Artwise, take your cue from the background art; HD doesn't mean resize and smooth out, it means adding quality and detail too. Gradients aren't the end-all and be-all of things, add some texture and actual shading, too. Oh, and whoever did that spring and thought it looked good needs their brain thrown away and replaced.

Programming-wise, oh dear. This feels like a fangame circa-2002, when we had just realised about "Static Engines" (despite there being a whole fucking tutorial based on it in The Games Factory). Not good. Go back and learn what Sonic games feel like, look at disassemblies to find out for yourself how they were programmed. This isn't a case of getting it to look right, it doesn't even just need to feel right, it needs to be right, especially for an "HD remake".

On the music front, three words. Don't. Use. Soundfonts. Or rather, don't just use soundfonts. I used to do that shit years ago, and looking back and listening to that hurts my ears. Arranging isn't just a case of throwing in a MIDI and rendering with a bit of reverb, you need to learn the song, rearrange it, add things to it, and make it sound polished.

Unfortunately, polish is something this game does not have. For three months of work, I'm sorry, but this does not cut it. The screenshots look pretty when they're static, even though there are glaring mistakes, but playing it makes it all the worse.

Does this have potential? Yes, any project like this does. Does it show promise for said potential right now? No.

Also, saxman, good job on being a dick. :D Keep that shit to PMs next time if you're not happy with someone, it just turns topics into flamewars.

[Yuzoboy]

I truly think the main thing you should focus on at the moment is the game engine and the physics. Im sure you're aware that Sonic's movement through the level and the collisions need more work, but im sure you can implement these in due time. Once that is fully complete, the design can be tweaked to the standards fitting for a Sonic 3 HD remake. Gameplay over design for me.

I also commend your use of XNA, my experience with it was good, but felt it was a bit slow for a feature-ridden game. Take into account the feedback and go about it with your own well though-out direction, will be interesting to see the level of quality you can produce with this project:)

[dsrb]

SteelBrush, on 28 December 2011 - 05:32 AM, said:

Why don't you take the project in a new direction. The game needs to offer a new experience over the original. Think about how S3K would have been if it was on the Saturn or 32x and use that to create a new art direction based off the existing level themes.

Cinossu, on 28 December 2011 - 10:21 AM, said:

The foreground tiles look like rubber, with no definition beyond a simple resize, smooth out and gradient. [. . .] HD doesn't mean resize and smooth out, it means adding quality and detail too. Gradients aren't the end-all and be-all of things, add some texture and actual shading, too.

QFT. Please read both of these posts about a hundred times!

This will be immeasurably better (and at all interesting to anyone who thinks as I do) if you reimagine rather than re-present.



Edit: I'm not so sure about the above recommendation that you prioritise gameplay over design. While the former should not be neglected, I don't think it should be the centrepiece: I assume the entire point of the project is to improve the graphics (and, secondarily, the music), so I would think that should be the focus. Anyway, if you can get the graphics looking good enough, you might end up with people throwing finished totally accurate engines at you!

This post has been edited by dsrb: 28 December 2011 - 01:59 PM

[Compsense]

I didn't follow the progress of this at all, and I didn't even know this project existed until 10-15 minutes ago. I glanced over the first page of posts, but otherwise I haven't bothered reading any other replies to the thread. I am remaining purposefully uninformed.

Anyway, my initial reaction was ":D" and I do believe I smiled within the first 5-10 seconds of gameplay. I'm easy to please, but I thought this was pretty darn cool! Obviously there's unfinished and broken aspects of the game, but they were to be expected, and it seems as if most of the basic stuff is working properly.
I'm looking foward to future updates and releases :3

Edit: I just noticed, but it seems weird for the entire background to move at the same speed. It feels like I'm playing in front of a giant painting. Having the various background elements moving at different speeds in relation to their supposed distance from the foreground would eliminate that illusion, although someone else has probably already mentioned this - in fact, you were probably already aware of it =P

This post has been edited by Compsense: 28 December 2011 - 03:41 PM

[dsrb]

I would hope so! Parallax scrolling is a basic feature of all the 2D games. I presume and very much hope that they're aware of this and that the current background is just a placeholder.

[Hinchy]

My issues with the game basically amount to anyone else's, but that said, focus on the programming issues first. The current art is kind of lazily-done but you should have your gameplay engine completely and totally polished to high heaven and back before you even really think about assets. The art and music right now is extremely incredibly flawed but it the very least makes a decent placeholder. So keep it as a placeholder for now, and work your ass off on the code.

First off: thoroughly read the entire Sonic Physics Guide. Then do it again. If you can't implement all this to the specifications you may as well not try.

You should strongly consider open-sourcing the project. Get a repository at GitHub. The more experienced programmers that can see your code and submit changes to the project, the likely better you'll be able to make the engine.

The project needs a SHITLOAD of work and polish but I also would like to believe you can make it into something awesome. I'd care more about a Sonic 3 HD any day of the week than a Sonic 2 HD -- and that's with no offense meant to the S2HD team as they've done incredible work, far more than this thing, and have set an incredibly high bar for any other similar fan remakes -- but S3K is my favorite of the classic Sonics and basically my favorite platformer of all time (and Sonic 2, while good, is my least favorite of the classic Sonics).

I'm pretty sure many share my opinion, so there's a significant niche out there that would love to see this project become all it could be, and possibly even contribute to making that so. If you guys behind the project can get your ass in gear and work on these issues, then support will follow behind.

This post has been edited by Hinchy: 28 December 2011 - 04:14 PM

[saxman]

Cinossu, on 28 December 2011 - 10:21 AM, said:

Also, saxman, good job on being a dick. :D Keep that shit to PMs next time if you're not happy with someone, it just turns topics into flamewars.

I'm not interested in petty flamewars, but I'll just say this: you would never say the same to Tweaker. He was a dick to the guy who posted this topic. Yet you want to call me out for actually doing the right thing. I'm not a dick, I'm just don't like seeing innocent people get kicked around. That's the way I've always been, and I am not going to bow down to anyone who decides they get to play God and treat people with a complete lack of respect. Oh I know guys, lets lock this topic because I don't like the game. Any reasonable person knows that's crazy. Anything else I say from here on will be via PM because I don't like stirring up crap publically. But I felt it needed to be said. It's not like I'm the only person who thinks this. I'm just the only one who's not afraid to speak up about it. All hail Tweaker.


As far as the game is concerned, it does have a ways to go. But I remember when S2HD was starting out. There were a lot of nay-sayers, and there were certain aspects of the quality that, looking back, were questionable. Some of the shading for example could be improved. You're at a disadvantage because you are a smaller group than Sega for example. However, I believe anyone can do anything they want if they have the imagination and talent for it. Please keep posting about this project.

This post has been edited by saxman: 28 December 2011 - 04:18 PM

[winterhell]

Thanks guys for the comments, we'll do our best to improve and we'll keep you posted

And estimating that I haven't read Mercury's Physics Guide is flattering me. Its true however that some of the values there doesn't work on this engine, so I calculated them myself. Especially the ones concerning slopes.

[Hinchy]

winterhell, on 28 December 2011 - 04:45 PM, said:

Thanks guys for the comments, we'll do our best to improve and we'll keep you posted

And estimating that I haven't read Mercury's Physics Guide is flattering me. Its true however that some of the values there doesn't work on this engine, so I calculated them myself. Especially the ones concerning slopes.

I'm pretty sure flattering is the not the word you meant.
That said, a lot more than just the slope values felt wrong to me when playing Sonic 3 HD earlier. I might write a more detailed writeup later but it is more than just the slopes.
Honestly the engine does feel like a very rough approximation, like an early "static engine" like Tweaker mentioned, and fixing that should be your number one priority. But it can be done!