[Felik]

Falk, on 09 January 2012 - 12:47 PM, said:

Or maybe it's just a sign of human civilization degenerating in general. That's an equally reasonable explanation.

Yeah, humans just suddenly degenerated within a 10-years span.

This post has been edited by Felik: 09 January 2012 - 05:18 PM

[Clutch]

There were plenty of low-quality fangames with classic Sonic on SFGHQ back in the day and even more that were considered good then and wouldn't be now. They may've not been juxtaposed with .jpeg rips from 3D games (closest thing that comes to mind personally was that rebuild of Hidden Palace using magazine clippings, that was actually pretty nifty for the time), but it doesn't mean they weren't also mis-colored, badly tiled, badly animated, or paired with mspaint drawings. There were very few games with Advance sprites, but at the time there were also fewer resources from which to get them.

The people making good retro games now have probably been in the community long enough to tell you how it used to be.

This post has been edited by Clutch: 09 January 2012 - 06:07 PM

[SoNick]

Yeah... SpeedStarTMQ, falk, you're talking out of your asses.
Quit that.

There were PLENTY of terrible fangames then just as there are now! It's just that, with maybe a handful of exceptions, nobody cares enough about the shitty ones from back then to keep bringing them up.

Quote

Nowadays everybody but me can ceate a game. Anyone releases any old shit, [...] and people spread it.

This is the worst part of the posts right here!
EVERYBODY had "totally 100% legally obtained for reals" copies of the Clickteam products (Klik 'N Play, Click 'N Create, The Games Factory, and Multimedia Fusion; there are probably newer ones now) back in the day.
Shit, 13-year-old me made a terrible 4-players-on-one-keyboard fighting(?) game with shitty recolor characters (Fire/Ice variations of Sonic and Knuckles) back then.

Quote

I don't think any releases of Sonic had anything to do with it. The problem is that the youngest people nowadays play games like Sonic or Mario, and wreck the fandom.

Where the fuck is this "nowadays" coming from? I played my first Mario game at less than 5 and that was nearly 20 years ago now. Am -I- wrecking the fandom?

Felik already covered falk's post, and I have nothing to add to his comment.

Clutch: RE: That Hidden Palace Zone thing: it was noteworthy at the time because SSNTails made it prior to the Wai Sonic 2 prototype being widespread; he reconstructed the level from images in magazines and it was near-identical to the actual level when the proto was found! It's an interesting historical curiosity, but it doesn't really stand out as a full fangame nowadays.

[Falk]

Felik, on 09 January 2012 - 05:18 PM, said:

Falk, on 09 January 2012 - 12:47 PM, said:

Or maybe it's just a sign of human civilization degenerating in general. That's an equally reasonable explanation.

Yeah, humans just suddenly degenerated within a 10-years span.

Pretty sure you're taking that part of my post way too seriously.

SoNick, on 10 January 2012 - 02:00 AM, said:

Felik already covered falk's post, and I have nothing to add to his comment.

Pretty sure you're taking his post too seriously.

But if you're actually interested in holding a discussion about this rather that instantly objectively declaring I'm "talking out my ass" because of my subjective opinion, it's simple fact that social networking has given a medium and means for practically anyone to have an audience. At this point of time we're not talking about cloistered little communities like sonic retro/sfghq/etc where you'd have to search infoseek or yahoo or whatever and have a genuine interest in fan-made games beyond what actually came out commercially. We're talking about, for example typing in "Sonic Generations" in Youtube and eventually getting links/related videos to the aforementioned barf, not to mention posts on e.g. facebook/tweeting very conveniently reaching out to 2nd degree contacts.

The gist of it was that fangaming may not have gotten worse (although tbqh, in my opinion yes it has), but its ability to reach an audience has.

I played my first Sonic game when I was 8 and that was 20 years ago. What's your point? Why are you getting so defensive/upset?

On that note, 10 years ago Youtube, facebook and twitter didn't exist so yes, humans suddenly degenerated in a 10 year period.

Spoiler

I CAN'T BELIEVE I NEED TO POINT THIS OUT, BUT JUST SO YOU DON'T GET YOUR PANTIES IN A TWIST IN A HURRY ALL OVER AGAIN, THAT LAST PART WAS HUMOR. YOU MAY NOW INSTEAD DISPENSE A ONE-LINE REPLY ABOUT HOW MY HUMOR IS BAD INSTEAD. HURR

This post has been edited by Falk: 10 January 2012 - 03:10 AM

[SpeedStarTMQ]

SoNick, on 10 January 2012 - 02:00 AM, said:

Yeah... SpeedStarTMQ, falk, you're talking out of your asses.
Quit that.

There were PLENTY of terrible fangames then just as there are now! It's just that, with maybe a handful of exceptions, nobody cares enough about the shitty ones from back then to keep bringing them up.

Quote

Nowadays everybody but me can ceate a game. Anyone releases any old shit, [...] and people spread it.

This is the worst part of the posts right here!
EVERYBODY had "totally 100% legally obtained for reals" copies of the Clickteam products (Klik 'N Play, Click 'N Create, The Games Factory, and Multimedia Fusion; there are probably newer ones now) back in the day.
Shit, 13-year-old me made a terrible 4-players-on-one-keyboard fighting(?) game with shitty recolor characters (Fire/Ice variations of Sonic and Knuckles) back then.

Seriously? So you're telling me that in 1994 there were widespread fangames which everybody knew about? And what you're also saying is that I'm wrong and that people don't talk about them because no one knew of them, but because they're shit? Yeah, alright.

SoNick, on 10 January 2012 - 02:00 AM, said:

Shit, 13-year-old me made a terrible 4-players-on-one-keyboard fighting(?) game with shitty recolor characters (Fire/Ice variations of Sonic and Knuckles) back then.

Exactly. Thirteen year old you. Let me tell you- a large portion of the Sonic fanbase is much younger than you, from around 13 - 17 years old. You're twenty four. You're old enough- and I would hope people of your age are now grown up enough - to not make any old shitty fan game and spread it around the web. Most of these shit fan games I see come from that lower age bracket, whilst the quality ones like Sonic Fan Remix, Nexus, Before The Sequel and the like come from people in the higher bracket. Now even these 13 year olds who like Sonic would have experienced the originals, I don't think I've met a Sonic fan who hasn't. The quality or style of the official games has sod all to do with why there are so many crap fan games, fan characters and stuff all over the internet. They're widespread because they can be, you just didn't notice all this before back in the 90's, when less people used the web and had websites like DeviantArt, Youtube, Facebook etc.

You even said yourself you did some recolours of characters, when the games were good? No freakin' way. Point proven.

SoNick, on 10 January 2012 - 02:00 AM, said:

Where the fuck is this "nowadays" coming from? I played my first Mario game at less than 5 and that was nearly 20 years ago now. Am -I- wrecking the fandom?

Draw some shitty pictures, do a flash cartoon you think is hilarious, or make a fan game out of some shitty sprites.

This post has been edited by SpeedStarTMQ: 10 January 2012 - 03:56 AM

[Vaiyt]

I think that Sonic got past the point of open derision and is now in the "irrelevance" phase. People just don't think Sonic is worth mocking anymore. Its days as a cultural phenomenon are well and truly over.

I hear that the franchise has been "picking itself up" for a whole bunch of years. Every shitty outing we got, there were people saying "oh, they're getting there". Every time SEGA released a game that showed they cared fuck-all about the classic gameplay principles, we got a bunch of fans trying their best to rationalize that the next game would be the one to "get it right". I've turned my back on that mentality around 2005 and never came back.

Classic Sonic is dead, even if SEGA insists on dragging its rotting corpse around as bait.

I play Sonic Generations. It's a ho-hum game. The Unleashed-style Modern gameplay is a definite improvement over the Adventure/Heroes/06 model, in the sense that it plays to the strengths of the franchise's current designers. Too bad I hate the style. The Classic part is anything but, feels like one of those fangames people made before faithful reproductions of the classic mechanics became available. Hall of fame material it isn't, but hey, not being shit that was shat on by the villain's horse, like many of the previous games, is already something. That's the only foreseeable hope I see for the moment: that Sonic will live on as something other than a butt monkey.

This post has been edited by Vaiyt: 07 February 2012 - 11:52 AM

[muteKi]

Classic Generations is not horrible. Instead of homing attack chains now I just hold right while hopping onto a string of enemies, but the margin of error is definitely narrower.

I think I'd like Generations if not for the modern half of the game, which is about as boring as I figured and not very fun. Still leagues above Unleashed though.

[Overlord]

Vaiyt, on 07 February 2012 - 11:51 AM, said:

[Sonic's] days as a cultural phenomenon are well and truly over.

This was 2 and a half months ago, dude. He's nowhere near finished.

[Lambda]

Overlord, on 07 February 2012 - 03:52 PM, said:

Vaiyt, on 07 February 2012 - 11:51 AM, said:

[Sonic's] days as a cultural phenomenon are well and truly over.

This was 2 and a half months ago, dude. He's nowhere near finished.

*Ahem* Within a month ago.

And also, the fact that SEGA is still MAKING Sonic games means he's still relevent. If they didn't think he'd make money, they'd put our spiney blue friend out to pasture. Call it a "cash cow" move if you'd like, but if that cash cow is making that green milk, I think he's still a cultural phenomenon.

This post has been edited by Lambda: 07 February 2012 - 10:59 PM

[Soapbox]

Sales figures can paint a thousand words...

This post has been edited by Soapbox: 08 February 2012 - 06:25 AM

[Lambda]

Soapbox, on 08 February 2012 - 06:23 AM, said:

Sales figures can paint a thousand words...

Was there really that much of a sales difference between Sonic 2 and Sonic 3? I find that really hard to believe...
Sources, please?

[Soapbox]

Lambda, on 08 February 2012 - 06:31 AM, said:

Was there really that much of a sales difference between Sonic 2 and Sonic 3? I find that really hard to believe...
Sources, please?

As you wish:

http://vgsales.wikia.com/wiki/Sonic - For sales (Excluding Generations)
http://uk.games.ign..../1217953p1.html - Generations Sales Data

Obviously those are estimated at the time of each individual article but seem to be fairly accurate.

[Azukara]

I find a lot of that hard to believe, actually. Especially since a lot of it consists of games put in the wrong order, four irrelevant games (two of the same compilation game, one portable, one party game, and one spinoff), and no Sonic Colors.

I am also having a horribly hard time believing that Sonic Nextgen sold more than any other Sonic game ever.

EDIT: Wait, you got your sources for every other game off of an incredibly out-of-date Wikia page. Wasn't a very good idea. Also, it seems that's actually just Sonic 1 again but combined with it's mobile phone sales.. yeah, that chart is pretty bogus.

This post has been edited by Azukara: 08 February 2012 - 01:39 PM

[Vaiyt]

Soapbox, on 08 February 2012 - 06:23 AM, said:

Sales figures can paint a thousand words...

So... Sega should make more games like Sonic 2006?

Where did those sales come from anyway? VGChartz gives Sonic 2006 2 million copies, counting both versions, and puts about a million extra copies on Sonic Advance.

[Soapbox]

Azukara, on 08 February 2012 - 01:17 PM, said:

I find a lot of that hard to believe, actually. Especially since a lot of it consists of games put in the wrong order, four irrelevant games (two of the same compilation game, one portable, one party game, and one spinoff), and no Sonic Colors.

I am also having a horribly hard time believing that Sonic Nextgen sold more than any other Sonic game ever.

EDIT: Wait, you got your sources for every other game off of an incredibly out-of-date Wikia page. Wasn't a very good idea. Also, it seems that's actually just Sonic 1 again but combined with it's mobile phone sales.. yeah, that chart is pretty bogus.

Okay, here you are updated with figures from vgchartz.com.

These are global sales, and I didn't do the counting so please take up your beef with vgchartz.

1 Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games Wii 2007 - 7.82m
2 Sonic the Hedgehog 2 GEN 1992 - 6.02m
3 Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games DS 2008 - 5.97m
4 Sonic the Hedgehog GEN 1991 - 4.34m
5 Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Winter Games Wii 2009 - 4.25m

You can view the rest of the list here.

Mario and Sonic seems to have wiped the floor with the others.